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Old 30-03-2014, 09:39   #16
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Re: Keel joint rust?

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
The keel does not have to be removed to change the bolts.
Maybe not on that 385, not sure.... BUT... I don't need help investigating that.... The majority of boats cannot swap out keelbolts without pulling the keel... Only 2 methods I know of that you can... And they're not common, and one prone to sacrificial corrosion when wet....
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Old 30-03-2014, 09:42   #17
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Re: Keel joint rust?

Even if the keel bolts can be changed with the keel in place, wouldn't dropping the keel to the best way to seal and fair the joint after the bolts have been replaced?
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Old 30-03-2014, 09:46   #18
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Re: Keel joint rust?

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Originally Posted by Horror Hotel View Post
I 2nd pulling the keel, it's not a big deal really. If the bolts are rusty and need to be changed, any other half assed repair just prolongs the inevitable. If the keel joint is weeping, pull the keel and fix it.
+1
And possibly extreme failure...
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Old 30-03-2014, 10:18   #19
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Re: Keel joint rust?

I can understand the reluctance to pull the keel if you were paying to have it done. A $4000 DIY job could cost $18k at the wrong yard, I can see why the average non-DYI-er seems put off by it. Tell the owner the keel needs to come off and take 20k off the agreed price. Buy the boat, drop keel, change bolts, & re-bed yourself and be ahead in the deal.
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Old 31-03-2014, 04:57   #20
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Re: Keel joint rust?

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Originally Posted by Horror Hotel View Post
Even if the keel bolts can be changed with the keel in place, wouldn't dropping the keel to the best way to seal and fair the joint after the bolts have been replaced?
Hurt my brain... But I think I have the answer HH.... I cannot think a better way ...

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Originally Posted by Horror Hotel View Post
I can understand the reluctance to pull the keel if you were paying to have it done. A $4000 DIY job could cost $18k at the wrong yard, I can see why the average non-DYI-er seems put off by it. Tell the owner the keel needs to come off and take 20k off the agreed price. Buy the boat, drop keel, change bolts, & re-bed yourself and be ahead in the deal.
Persactly.... Or take the agreed reduction, and adjust for reasonable inspection and repair... DIY could do it for under 2k for a simple drop, clean, splooge, crank nuts, fair....

The mystery will never go away... Unless something really bad happens... It's simply passed on to the next possible future owner...
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Old 31-03-2014, 08:58   #21
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Re: Keel joint rust?

Happy & Horror--

How many keel bolts have you 2 personally replaced?
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Old 31-03-2014, 09:15   #22
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Re: Keel joint rust?

I am a skilled tradesman and do everything my self, I recently repowered with a new yanmar ( dec. 20th to jam. 5th) and last summer changed my centerboard to a deeper keel adding 1000# and 10" of depth. The keel job required being lifted by the travel lift 4 times on and off the cradle, plus some fork lift time. The keel was built in my shop and I trailered it 40 miles to to the marina where I was hauled. I realize that maybe 80% of boaters are not capable of doing such extreme repairs. Bankers and car fab guys rarely have the same skills, but both own sailboats. Regardless, these type of repairs still need to get done, even if it costs one guy 10k and another 1k for the same repair. It's also very possible that the skilled owner ends up with the better job as he controlled the outcome rather than cheap labor following instructions. Some yards do great work, some yards are hackers, and everything else lies in-between.
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Old 31-03-2014, 09:18   #23
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Re: Keel joint rust?

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Thanks for all the interesting replies. We have now reached the exciting stage of actively looking for the boat we hope to spend the rest of our lives on, and all the beautiful pics and descriptions in the ads seldom show or tell about that weeping keel joint, or the mold inside the head liner, or the 18 inch gouge down the side of the gel coat
So I figure so the trips to see these boats won't be a total waste of our time, we might as well learn what we can along the way.
Keep looking, you will learn a lot. I spent six months and drove thousands of miles, paid for two surveys and sea trials.
When you find the boat, you really will know. Sounds silly, but it does happen that way. Just do NOT get fixated on one boat, no matter how hard the heart pulls, if your gut feeling is no, listen to your gut, walk away.
I've never worked so hard in my life to buy something as I have this boat, never.
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Old 31-03-2014, 10:42   #24
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Re: Keel joint rust?

Thanks, 64Pilot. I am sure you are right, and after waiting years for kids to grow, dogs to die, and husband to retire it is hard to constrian ourselves sometimes, but as there are two of us in this game we tend to balance each other out.

Until then, we learn, and hopefully laugh a lot too!!
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:02   #25
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Re: Keel joint rust?

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Happy & Horror--

How many keel bolts have you 2 personally replaced?
Pulling another 10k lb keel in less than a month... We just have differing opinions... It's OK man... That's why a lot of guys try to help here... to weed out the crap... And they simply want to help... I am wrong sometimes.... A LOT!!!
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:37   #26
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Re: Keel joint rust?

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Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
...In all cases with this noted, I would insist on pulling the keel...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horror Hotel View Post
I 2nd pulling the keel, it's not a big deal really...
It is OK that neither of you has ever removed 1 keel bolt, yourself--most sailors have not. Those who have, will likely realize that accessing these bolts often calls for major surgery to the yacht's interior. And that bolt replacement does not necessarily require the keel's removal, a major expense.

The rust stain in the photo is either from a rusting bolt or an iron keel.
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Old 01-04-2014, 09:46   #27
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Re: Keel joint rust?

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So we looked at a 1991 Beneteau today (38s5) that for other reasons we are not going to consider buying, but am curious about this, what looks like rust at the keel/hull joint. My question is would this cause concern if you were looking to spend the $70,000 asking price? I,as a total newbie to sailing, saw that and it raised a red flag in my mind.
I own a 1986 Beneteau First 405 which had similar "rust issues" as your 38s5. Here's what I learned:

Most of the older Beneteaus have cast iron keels, mounted to the bottom of the hull with high tensile steel (not stainless) bolts and washers. The rust you see at the hull - keel joint is "normal". As long as no water is leaking into the boat, there is no reason to drop the keel and re-bed it. Mine looks worse than yours and I plan on cleaning and filling the area during our next haul out.

As I mentioned earlier, the keel bolts on these earlier boats are not stainless so do rust. They thread into the keel from the sump (unlike what you'd see on a lead keel boat). Since they are made of mild steel, they do rust (especially if the bilge has been wet) so may need to be replaced. For years Beneteau recommended replacing them only with identical, mild steel bolts. But when I called they recommended using stainless steel bolts (with the caveat that I pull them out yearly to inspect). I opted to use the high tensile mild steel bolts when I changed mine.

My boat has 10 keel bolts and so far I've replaced 4 of them. Two more are in a hard to reach location so will wait until the next haul out and the rest looked fine. I replaced them one by one with a 1/2" pneumatic impact wrench and massive torque wrench. On my boat, the bolts have to be tightened to just over 300 lbs, so it's not a job for the weak of heart. You will likely need the help of a muscular friend to help you get that much torque.

According to Beneteau, the rating on a single bolt is enough to hold the entire keel, so a bit of rust isn't really a huge cause for concern.

Hope this helps
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:00   #28
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Re: Keel joint rust?

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
It is OK that neither of you has ever removed 1 keel bolt, yourself--most sailors have not. Those who have, will likely realize that accessing these bolts often calls for major surgery to the yacht's interior. And that bolt replacement does not necessarily require the keel's removal, a major expense.



The rust stain in the photo is either from a rusting bolt or an iron keel.

Did you bother to read our replies?
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:14   #29
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Re: Keel joint rust?

Horror--yes, at least you were honest that the closest you've come to replacing a keel bolt was to modify a centerboard. Happy sounds happy to imply that this will be the 2nd time he removes a 10,000 lb keel, by himself (I don't believe that--do you? )
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:48   #30
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Re: Keel joint rust?

One more bit of information I neglected to add:

You can always call Beneteau USA for technical advice and to order replacement parts. That's what I did and I also bought the replacement keel bolts from them.

If you haven't already bought the 38s5, one other thing to check are the through hulls and sea cocks. My boat had a couple that were either frozen or "weeping" so I replaced them. Replacements are also available from Beneteau.
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