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Old 25-08-2016, 17:30   #76
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
While I have found the above discourse fascinating, it seems directed at a tiny fraction of the yachting world, and one not closely associated with the OPs question as I understood it.

I feel reasonably confident that there are few skilled hackers who just want to mess with Joe Doak's 40 foot sailboat, but that there are plenty of Joe Doak's boats that rely upon electronic gimmicks to carry out normal operations, and that those electronic gimmicks are subject to random failures. This seems a subject of interest to lots of cruisers who do not sail in megayachts.

Meanwhile, thanks to Eben for posting some interesting aspects of the modern world, ones that I was not very aware of.

Jim
Glad you found it interesting! I guess my paranoia comes from a deep dark place and too many hours at the keyboard.

The initial point I was trying to make is that I prefer my boat without the possibility of this happening. Chances are that in any given anchorage I'm likely the one person with the the skill to do this at that given time, so I'm likely safe - also my hat is white, so by extension the anchorage is most likely safe (statistically speaking).

If we're talking about 40' yachts with lesser security measures... well you figure that one out... Just wait till some idiot gets the bright idea to deploy cyber weapons on the pesky drone he flies over your yacht (this wouldn't be hard - I can point you to a few tools on the net that could achieve this without issue). While you're busy trying to shoo the thing away and not paying attention to the electronic systems on board they can be compromised. A simple but effective attack would be to lift the yacht's anchor - assuming there's some fancy electronic device on board that's connected to a network on the yacht. These control from your phone devices are getting more and more common.

I'm not suggesting that anybody do this, but I can imagine it would be quite spectacular if the anchors were lifted of a few yachts in an anchorage by some idiot with a drone... Assuming of course that there's no manual intervention required to do so.

It's not always fun inside my mind... now I have to worry about other yachts too...
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Old 25-08-2016, 19:06   #77
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by bmz View Post
Neither AIS nor radar is going to help you when a small vessel fails to yield the right-of-way. By the time you are aware of his failure to yield you are both within easy visual distance of one another. You must then honk your horn and make necessary course corrections (although a course correction can also produce an "after you Alfonse" collision).
Well in two near misses with small boats I've experienced it was night and the other boats had no lights. One sailboat I would have hit head on if I had not been standing a close watch and saw a lightness dead ahead from the sails. I had to tack at the last minute when I realized it was a boat and missed him about two boat lengths. The other was a boat anchored at night fishing with no lights at all. I missed that one by a couple of feet.

In both cases radar would have shown them. AIS would have been zero help.

If I had collided head on with the sailboat we probably would have lost the mast but probably would not have sunk and probably 50/50 no one would have been killed or seriously injured by the falling mast.

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There is a huge difference between a small vessel which can alter course to avoid a collision within a couple hundred feet of you (and vice versa) and a 500 foot freighter moving at 25 kn that cannot and will not change its course. I went out solo sailing today and received a collision alarm from my AIS for ~eight different vessels, ~six of which could not maneuver away from me and required me to yield. Before AIS, I often had the **** scared out of me by one of these bearing down on me from behind.
One huge difference is the freighter is huge so you can see it for miles. At night you can see the lights 10-12 miles away. Daytime sometimes a few miles before you can see them. In all my years of sailing I never came even slightly close to a collision with a ship. I did the math once. I forget the exact number of seconds but if you were in a 6 kt sailboat directly in front of a giant freighter going 20 kts you could cross completely across his bow in something like 20 or 40 seconds.

By the way, you should keep a lookout behind as well as ahead and don't forget to look around the genoa.

Bottom line.

Big ships. Easy to see miles away. Easy to avoid by small maneuver well in advance or even a larger maneuver at the last minute. Usually have and use AIS.

Small boats. Harder to see, often less predictable, few have AIS and can still sink your boat. In dark, fog or heavy rain when you can't get a visual radar will spot them, AIS won't. Collisions with small boats can still ruin your day.
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Old 26-08-2016, 05:44   #78
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by bmz View Post
Where I am all commercial vessels have AIS; but more importantly that 60/70 foot vessel is required to yield to me (unless trawling when he is going super slow). As I noted originally, small vessels are not a threat to me. In fact, I wish that small vessels only had AIS receivers rather than transponders; as noted they are not a threat to me and just clutter up my plotter screen. Accordingly, it's not important to me for the other guy to see me, if he doesn't have to yield to me, and can't yield to me, whether he sees me or not I have to yield to him.
Maybe in developed country waters, but get out here in thirdworldlandia and there are plenty of larger craft that dont have AIS...or even nav lights for that matter...and effectively zero enforcement.

AIS and RADAR are different tools with different, complimentary, uses. I think there is a whole thread in here on just that subject.
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Old 26-08-2016, 08:06   #79
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

To the original question on switching shore-gen with an Ipad, it has been done, and I have worked on a number of systems that do it. There are a number of approaches some are proprietary marine solutions with their own custom hardware. Others are using industrial and commercial systems to achieve the same job. The proprietary (3rd party) method tends to be lower cost and easier install for OEM's (a common example would be multiplex systems) but they tend to need someone familiar with the system to work on them. The industrial solutions tend to be more expensive and labor consuming to install but have a larger pool of labor worldwide to work on them.

An industrial solution would use a PLC tied to the network controlling either a set of motor operated breakers, motorized rotary switch or a set of contractors. Motor operated breakers are easy simply find where they are mounted and manually engage the breakers. The rotary switch is tougher some will have a manual override other you will have to disconnect the motor and rotate the switch with a wrench. Contractors can vary, most do not have a manual over ride (those that do tend to only have it as a momentary test function) but you can normally wire a jumper to the coil to engage what ever side you need (keeping in mind you are likely byapssing any electrical interlock so make sure the other power option is off) Of course if the coils dead well your out of luck unless you have a spare. Much like cars there are often ways to fix these things it just requires a new set of skills for those working on them.

They are different from cars in that as was already mentioned they are low volume systems (or one offs) so you often see more bugs and incomplete engineering then you will in the automotive space.
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Old 26-08-2016, 09:23   #80
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

An old salt once told me that everything on a boat should fall into one of three catagories:
1 User repairable
2 Carry a spare
3 Be able to live without

As far as the radar vs AIS discussion, I feel you should use all data available with the emphasis on firstly eyesight, secondly direct measurement equipment (radar and depthsounder) then the rest.
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Old 26-08-2016, 09:44   #81
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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As far as the radar vs AIS discussion, I feel you should use all data available with the emphasis on firstly eyesight, secondly direct measurement equipment (radar and depthsounder) then the rest.
Ditto. I don't really understand the debate - you might not have radar because of limited funds and electrical output, but all it takes is a radar + AIS data integration + a trip to the Pacific to show how AIS only works when you're dealing with people acting in good faith. If you truly rely on AIS in some parts, you'll find yourself sailing in the middle of a fishing fleet from Taiwan with fake AIS data or toggle on and off nonsense.
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Old 26-08-2016, 11:36   #82
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by CGirvan View Post
An old salt once told me that everything on a boat should fall into one of three catagories:
1 User repairable
2 Carry a spare
3 Be able to live without


Don't remember this being put quite so succinctly but this is pretty much how I've always tried to operate.


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Originally Posted by CGirvan View Post
As far as the radar vs AIS discussion, I feel you should use all data available with the emphasis on firstly eyesight, secondly direct measurement equipment (radar and depthsounder) then the rest.
A good, simple, clear way to put it.
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Old 26-08-2016, 13:15   #83
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

I have no problem with the new technology. What I would be concerned with is it all connected together. It would seem one failure could bring down everything. For example everything going to one monitor. What happens when the screen takes a ****? All of that info. is not accessible. JMHO Time to pull out the paper charts if someone hasn't become totally dependent on technology that is lumped together.
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Old 26-08-2016, 14:17   #84
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Too complicated for me........and if someone hacks into my 'system' then they are welcome 'cos I have nothing but some charts and boaty type stuff on my laptop. My other laptop, the one this written on etc is not ever linked into anything else 'cept when going into an internet cafe etc. Even then there is little of any interest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
While I have found the above discourse fascinating, it seems directed at a tiny fraction of the yachting world, and one not closely associated with the OPs question as I understood it.

I feel reasonably confident that there are few skilled hackers who just want to mess with Joe Doak's 40 foot sailboat, but that there are plenty of Joe Doak's boats that rely upon electronic gimmicks to carry out normal operations, and that those electronic gimmicks are subject to random failures. This seems a subject of interest to lots of cruisers who do not sail in megayachts.

Meanwhile, thanks to Eben for posting some interesting aspects of the modern world, ones that I was not very aware of.

Jim
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Old 26-08-2016, 15:55   #85
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by bmz View Post
I have never seen a radar that was superimposed on a chart plotter, and as easy to read and informative as AIS, including audible and visible alarms when on a collision course. All large commercial vessels are required to have AIS. They are the only ones I want to see--we must yield to them, and they do not have the maneuverability to yield to us. That plus the fact that they are huge, fast and dangerous makes it imperative that we see them long before they are upon us. On a sailboat like mine, most small vessels must yield to me. When I am on a port tack, it is easy for me to see the sailboats I must yield to before a collision. Inasmuch as AIS is superimposed on the chart plotter the things you mentioned such as limited visibility and docks are irrelevant. For weather, I can pull up local radar on my cell phone. As I said, I'll take a $200 AIS over a $2000 radar any time.
You have obviously never sailed in Maine fog surrounded by Maine lobster boats
Good luck with "right of way",AIS,chartplotter,horns,bow watch,etc. & NO Radar.
Len
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Old 26-08-2016, 16:11   #86
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
Well in two near misses with small boats I've experienced it was night and the other boats had no lights. One sailboat I would have hit head on if I had not been standing a close watch and saw a lightness dead ahead from the sails. I had to tack at the last minute when I realized it was a boat and missed him about two boat lengths. The other was a boat anchored at night fishing with no lights at all. I missed that one by a couple of feet.

In both cases radar would have shown them. AIS would have been zero help.

If I had collided head on with the sailboat we probably would have lost the mast but probably would not have sunk and probably 50/50 no one would have been killed or seriously injured by the falling mast.



One huge difference is the freighter is huge so you can see it for miles. At night you can see the lights 10-12 miles away. Daytime sometimes a few miles before you can see them. In all my years of sailing I never came even slightly close to a collision with a ship. I did the math once. I forget the exact number of seconds but if you were in a 6 kt sailboat directly in front of a giant freighter going 20 kts you could cross completely across his bow in something like 20 or 40 seconds.

By the way, you should keep a lookout behind as well as ahead and don't forget to look around the genoa.

Bottom line.

Big ships. Easy to see miles away. Easy to avoid by small maneuver well in advance or even a larger maneuver at the last minute. Usually have and use AIS.

Small boats. Harder to see, often less predictable, few have AIS and can still sink your boat. In dark, fog or heavy rain when you can't get a visual radar will spot them, AIS won't. Collisions with small boats can still ruin your day.
Agree-big ships are much less danger than small vessels-except in thick fog-then all vessels are equally dangerous IMHO.

Note on crossing in front of a 20Kt vessel with a 6-10Kt vessel.
A 20Kt vessel covers 5Nm every 15minutes. Do the math
Len
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Old 26-08-2016, 16:22   #87
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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A picture is worth 100 words
The fuse just blew at the battery connection in your NMEA 2000 diagram -just as you were approaching a tight harbour or other situation -after dark...& ...let's throw in thick fog-just to make it a bit challenging.
No cel signal either...

Hmmm-where did you put that clock & hand bearing compass??

All your eggs in one basket(fuse & interfacing)

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Old 26-08-2016, 16:43   #88
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Agree-big ships are much less danger than small vessels-except in thick fog-then all vessels are equally dangerous IMHO.

Note on crossing in front of a 20Kt vessel with a 6-10Kt vessel.
A 20Kt vessel covers 5Nm every 15minutes. Do the math
Len
Hi Len,

No argument at all with your first point.

Regarding the math yes I've done it. 20 knots works.out to 121,520 feet per hour or approximately 34 feet per second. 6 knots works out to about 10 feet per second. Assume a medium-sized freighter has a beam of 200 feet.

For simplicity's sake ignoring the length of the sailboat it would take about 20 seconds to go 200 feet. In those same 20 seconds the freighter would go approximately 700 feet. So based on that math if a freighter was 1000 feet away and you were totally insane you could probably cross in front of it and make it in one piece.
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Old 26-08-2016, 17:00   #89
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Hi Len,

No argument at all with your first point.

Regarding the math yes I've done it. 20 knots works.out to 121,520 feet per hour or approximately 34 feet per second. 6 knots works out to about 10 feet per second. Assume a medium-sized freighter has a beam of 200 feet.

For simplicity's sake ignoring the length of the sailboat it would take about 20 seconds to go 200 feet. In those same 20 seconds the freighter would go approximately 700 feet. So based on that math if a freighter was 1000 feet away and you were totally insane you could probably cross in front of it and make it in one piece.
Yep. Assuming one is totally insane,the bow wave doesn't get you,the wind isn't blanked by the tanker or the engine doesn/t die,-it is mathematically possible.
When cutting it that close,wear dark colored underwear & keep some touch-up paint aboard

Fair winds / Len
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Old 26-08-2016, 17:14   #90
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

It never ceases to amaze me how some posters insist on their "right of way" (No such thing in COLREGS) & seem to believe that they have right of way due to wind or light colors & can "quote" such.
This makes it appear that they have memorized COLREGS & follow it to the letter.
But somehow,Rule 2 is forgotten.

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Blame for collisions is usually apportioned to both parties.
Club racing rules are not a defence.

Len
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