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Old 24-08-2016, 22:53   #46
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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I also wonder what will happen to all our electronic devices dependency when a good size solar flare will hit the Earth. Or in the event of deliberate jamming on a wide enough scale. How fast would we get to the "Mad Max" level of existence?
Or just a common old lightning strike nearby. The last one I experienced got my TV and a computer, about $1,000 worth and I was really pissed of. Wonder how one would feel if $300k of instrumentation got zapped?
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Old 25-08-2016, 05:23   #47
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

I am not sure I agree with the redundancy argument. So I should buy 2 or 3 of everything because they are cheap, poorly designed junk that will not last very long. Then I will have a spare POS to replace the original. How does that fix the problem. I just spend all my time spending money and changing parts.
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Old 25-08-2016, 06:17   #48
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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especially when you find the passwords are PASSWORD or 123456

doesn't matter what cryptography is in use!
Former IT guy here. You'd be surprised how many never change default passwords and most vendors have undocumented field service passwords. Once you know a few of those from major vendors...what kind of network security is in place becomes irrelevant. Ive popped right into major high security data centers using these before (I was working there so it was just a test...but disturbing that I could get in so easily).
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Old 25-08-2016, 06:28   #49
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Cars are much more reliable now than they were 40 years ago, and perform better, and pollute less, and are safer and have more creature comforts. But I can't fix much on my own anymore. And finding someone who can is a pita and expensive.

Tradeoffs.
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Old 25-08-2016, 06:33   #50
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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I respectfully disagree about the AIS being more useful than radar. AIS is only good when the other vessel has it; most do not, and even if they do, AIS still doesn't help with things in the water, docks, limited visibility, etc.
I have never seen a radar that was superimposed on a chart plotter, and as easy to read and informative as AIS, including audible and visible alarms when on a collision course. All large commercial vessels are required to have AIS. They are the only ones I want to see--we must yield to them, and they do not have the maneuverability to yield to us. That plus the fact that they are huge, fast and dangerous makes it imperative that we see them long before they are upon us. On a sailboat like mine, most small vessels must yield to me. When I am on a port tack, it is easy for me to see the sailboats I must yield to before a collision. Inasmuch as AIS is superimposed on the chart plotter the things you mentioned such as limited visibility and docks are irrelevant. For weather, I can pull up local radar on my cell phone. As I said, I'll take a $200 AIS over a $2000 radar any time.
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Old 25-08-2016, 06:41   #51
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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I am not sure I agree with the redundancy argument. So I should buy 2 or 3 of everything because they are cheap, poorly designed junk that will not last very long. Then I will have a spare POS to replace the original. How does that fix the problem. I just spend all my time spending money and changing parts.
Redundancy doesn't mean buying spares for everything (although it certainly helps) - it means you multiple ways of achieving the same function/goal. So if my starter switch fails, I should know how to use the manual starter, or how to compete the circuit bypassing the switch.
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Old 25-08-2016, 06:46   #52
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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especially when you find the passwords are PASSWORD or 123456

doesn't matter what cryptography is in use!
Or the Poles telling the British the Nazis had used 1234 for ABCD on the rotors for the Enigma machine
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Old 25-08-2016, 06:51   #53
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

My Ray Marine E7 easily overlays radar on the chart, or I can run the radar screen and the chart side-by-side. I can also overlay AIS or WX on the chart. I can overlay links to aerial photography and a pilot book. I assume that all manufacturer's premium units can overlay layers like this.

AIS is a wonderful tool, but it would be better if every buoy and navigational aid were an electronic AToN. Until that time comes I think that radar is still valid for fog and night passages. I have used my radar to locate the center of channel buoy more than 8 miles away, then have the auto pilot steer to it. The radar will alarm if a vessel comes between me and that buoy.

Meanwhile I can step away from the wheel to use my ears and nose to search for small vessels hidden in the fog and dark. My experience is that fishing vessels never run their AIS; but if you are downwind you can smell them a long ways away
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Old 25-08-2016, 07:00   #54
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by bmz View Post
I have never seen a radar that was superimposed on a chart plotter, and as easy to read and informative as AIS, including audible and visible alarms when on a collision course. All large commercial vessels are required to have AIS. They are the only ones I want to see--we must yield to them, and they do not have the maneuverability to yield to us. That plus the fact that they are huge, fast and dangerous makes it imperative that we see them long before they are upon us. On a sailboat like mine, most small vessels must yield to me. When I am on a port tack, it is easy for me to see the sailboats I must yield to before a collision. Inasmuch as AIS is superimposed on the chart plotter the things you mentioned such as limited visibility and docks are irrelevant. For weather, I can pull up local radar on my cell phone. As I said, I'll take a $200 AIS over a $2000 radar any time.
A collision with a 60-70' steel fishing boat, that is not required to have AIS, could be just as catastrophic as a collision with a large commercial vessel that does have AIS. Then add the benefit of seeing land, channel markers and more with radar.

I prefer to have AIS and radar but if I was forced to choose only one it would be radar hands down.

By the way, you can get a good radar system for quite a bit less than $2000,maybe half that. I can add a radar to my Garmin plotter for under $1000. Also, I have not seen an AIS transponder for $200. If you're going to get AIS you really need to go with a transceiver and not a passive receiver. It's just as important for the other guy to see you as it is for you to see him.
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Old 25-08-2016, 07:29   #55
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Another problem with AIS is that not all ships have AIS switched on, or it might not be working. As far as being able to see you, a ship can reduce the clutter such that it only sees large vessels and avoids seeing a mass of small yachts.
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Old 25-08-2016, 07:34   #56
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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AIS is a wonderful tool, but it would be better if every buoy and navigational aid were an electronic AToN. Until that time comes I think that radar is still valid for fog and night passages. I have used my radar to locate the center of channel buoy more than 8 miles away, then have the auto pilot steer to it. The radar will alarm if a vessel comes between me and that buoy.
AIS is superimposed on your chart plotter which has every buoy and navigational aid on it. AIS works perfectly in fog and night passages. You don't want to know if a vessel comes between you and your destination; you want to know if that vessel is on a collision course with you.
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Old 25-08-2016, 07:42   #57
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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A collision with a 60-70' steel fishing boat, that is not required to have AIS, could be just as catastrophic as a collision with a large commercial vessel that does have AIS. Then add the benefit of seeing land, channel markers and more with radar.

I prefer to have AIS and radar but if I was forced to choose only one it would be radar hands down.

By the way, you can get a good radar system for quite a bit less than $2000,maybe half that. I can add a radar to my Garmin plotter for under $1000. Also, I have not seen an AIS transponder for $200. If you're going to get AIS you really need to go with a transceiver and not a passive receiver. It's just as important for the other guy to see you as it is for you to see him.
Where I am all commercial vessels have AIS; but more importantly that 60/70 foot vessel is required to yield to me (unless trawling when he is going super slow). As I noted originally, small vessels are not a threat to me. In fact, I wish that small vessels only had AIS receivers rather than transponders; as noted they are not a threat to me and just clutter up my plotter screen. Accordingly, it's not important to me for the other guy to see me, if he doesn't have to yield to me, and can't yield to me, whether he sees me or not I have to yield to him.
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Old 25-08-2016, 08:15   #58
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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While I might not be able to break the AES256 cypher I've managed to circumvent crypto many times. It's not the crypto algorithm that's the problem it's how it's used. Physical dongles are good!

(...)
Yep.

You may have had some luck making homebrew experiments but this is not what happens with remote boat management as is found on some maxi yachts. They are custom units and even if you can tap into their data flow (which is by itself very difficult thanks to screening and lack of access to maxi docks) then you are looking at a data stream and you do not even know what you are looking at. NO ROADMAP.

It is one think to break into a wifi router that you know the chipset, the OS, the coding method and so you can easily google up all the loopholes, pitfalls, shortcomings and any other info that may (while more often will not) allow you to breach.

But this is NOT how it is done on maxi boats. The system is custom, it is screened, the boat is physically remote. If you do tap in at all (highly unlikely, unless you get know-how directly from their hardware builders) then all you can see is the coded data stream. Decoding it, as we know, takes up to 20 years using all the computing power on the planet (assuming 50% success).

If you do break into such a system, this implies you had someone at the hardware/software company who gave you a tip. Why should anyone there give you a tip if they make hundreds of thousands of legit money for not giving it to you?

NO DO mate, NO DO.

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Old 25-08-2016, 08:34   #59
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Where I am all commercial vessels have AIS; but more importantly that 60/70 foot vessel is required to yield to me (unless trawling when he is going super slow). As I noted originally, small vessels are not a threat to me. In fact, I wish that small vessels only had AIS receivers rather than transponders; as noted they are not a threat to me and just clutter up my plotter screen. Accordingly, it's not important to me for the other guy to see me, if he doesn't have to yield to me, and can't yield to me, whether he sees me or not I have to yield to him.
My father used to say, you might have the right of way when crossing a highway but if a truck runs the stop sign you might be right but you would be dead right.

In my years boating I have had a number of incidents (most recently last Saturday) where I was the stand on vessel (the correct Colregs term for the vessel that "has the right of way") but the other boat did not give way.

So in the real world, the fact that a vessel is required by colregs to give way (yield) could end up with you in a collision. Since colregs further require that the stand on vessel MUST alter course if the give way vessel does not then you would be also at fault if a collision occurred. And these 60-70' fishing boats without AIS are absolutely a threat. I have often seen them under AP with no one at the helm or at least no one watching, while they were messing with the gear; not fishing so required to adhere to standard colregs as a power vessel.

Regarding "small" fast boats not being a threat to you, there have been many, many cases of injury and death when a "small" speed boat (say 20'-30'-40') ran into a sailboat. From my experience almost no speed boats have AIS.
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Old 25-08-2016, 08:41   #60
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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especially when you find the passwords are PASSWORD or 123456

doesn't matter what cryptography is in use!
C'mon. Do not give simplistic info!

To enter any password, you need access to the log-in screen.

You never get that far though, with any decent system.

You would need a cahoots, on the boat, that would re-set their system and set in the admin mode. Now, if you do not know this already, any good admin will use a physical dongle authentication for admin access.

All the scenarios assume a vulnerability that only you know about or else a criminal co-operation. OK in hollywood scenarios but not in 2016 real life wireless system management.

I would bet dollars against cents no one at the CF can break into a properly secured plain wifi hotspot.

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