Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-08-2016, 13:38   #31
Registered User
 
jkindredpdx's Avatar

Join Date: May 2011
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35'
Posts: 1,042
Images: 5
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
... I also wonder what will happen to all our electronic devices dependency when a good size solar flare will hit the Earth. Or in the event of deliberate jamming on a wide enough scale. How fast would we get to the "Mad Max" level of existence?
One of our bug-out scenarios involves 2way radios stored in Faraday bags, meet at our 42 year-old boat, and head out to less populated territory... although I have some, admittedly outdated, electronics on board we could easily survive without it.
__________________

__________________
http://www.sednahr35.blogspot.com/ Jim K.
jkindredpdx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 13:43   #32
Registered User

Join Date: May 2016
Location: mackay, queensland. australia
Boat: e.a jack (builder), g.l watson (designer), 6.2 mtr wll sailboat
Posts: 484
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

no!!!!
__________________

__________________
knockabout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 15:22   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York, New York
Boat: Dufour Safari 27'
Posts: 347
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

It's called the over application of technology. I have a love-hate relationship with technology. I do love it, but generally I prefer the simpler solution. By the way, I used to work in the IT business, selling this stuff to businesses. Now I work, among other places, in the marine industry. I sell some of this technology however I always try to get the customer to realize that the technology IS the back up and that their brain is the primary system.

If it is electronic, it will fail at some point. Perhaps it will be the device itself. It may be the wiring. It may be the GPS or other external system that goes. Regardless of what it is, at some point it will fail, and often at the worst possible time. Autopilots, chart-plotters, windlasses, AIS, radar, you name it. The more complicated a system is the more likely it will fail too. You should see the amount of people who come into the shop trying to get one instrument to talk to some other device. I sell this stuff and constantly I have sailors who come into my shop and need a solenoid, motor, switch, wiring, fuses, etc.

Having said this, I am not opposed to using some of it but too often people go overboard and make things needlessly complicated. They also too often expect the device to do their thinking, thus taking away their situational awareness.

The stuff is great when it works and often it will work for a long, long time. When it goes however, it can be a real pain in the neck.

Perhaps I should sum it up in two words; Vestas Wind. As many before me have said, keep it simple (and have plenty of spares!).
__________________
ArmyDaveNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 15:31   #34
Registered User
 
Panacea2183's Avatar

Join Date: May 2016
Location: Cape Cora, Fl
Boat: 2002 Novatec 42 Sundeck Trawler
Posts: 92
Images: 1
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
The problem isn't "new technology" - it is bad design. Silicon products are not inherently safe stable or more prone to random error than mechanical ones. The key, like Kenomac said, is redundancy, but also we need better contingency planning.

But the folks who are good at contingency planning are mocked for having low threat tolerances and nannies w/ no balls - so they don't get to head up design and don't sell expensive yachts.

The survivor's bias is Darwin's memory for what works and what doesn't - but too often we don't keep records of negative results (and since the surviving design/build is the only example we have of the past - we think OH they used to build things better). This applies to boats, homes, walls, forts, knives, people, etc.

The problem with many superyachts and custom expensive boats is that the systems are custom designed - and people make mistakes, but there's less opportunity to correct and refine them because each build is a one off. People knock mass manufactured products, but I'd drive a boring Toyota Corolla for safety against the most latest Mclaren sports car.

In my perfect world? All hardware electrical systems conform to common standards/protocols so future controller devices, whether a simple switchboard or laptop can control them with relative ease.
Ever been hit by lightning?
All bets are off
Old school engines just keep on keepin on
Love the new electronics have a bunch of them!
But for propulsion I'll stick to the basics!
__________________
Panacea2183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 15:31   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: New York, New York
Boat: Dufour Safari 27'
Posts: 347
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmz View Post
On the other hand, I love NMEA 2000. No more redundant wiring, no more redundant instruments, no more hiring technicians to replace instruments/sensors; twist click, remove the bad instrument/sensor, twist click, install the new one. Additionally, a $200 AIS receiver is more valuable for coastal cruisers than a $2000 radar used to be.
NMEA 2000 does make things a lot easier however it is no where near a fool proof solution.

I respectfully disagree about the AIS being more useful than radar. AIS is only good when the other vessel has it; most do not, and even if they do, AIS still doesn't help with things in the water, docks, limited visibility, etc.

One of the issues I see with AIS is the same thing I see with GPS. People assume that when the AIS says it is clear, there is nothing else out there. People too often get information overload and keep their head in the screen, not looking around. They substitute following an arrow or pre-plotted course for navigation. In the aviation industry this is a real issue as pilots are losing their skills due to over automation.

Don't get me wrong; I use it but as little as possible. I use it as a back up, not as a primary system. I also use GPS as a back up but never for a primary plot. It is a great tool but only when used properly.
__________________
ArmyDaveNY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 16:08   #36
Registered User
 
poppyduc's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tin Can Bay Qld
Boat: Seawind 1160
Posts: 50
Images: 31
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Yes is a little scary now. Its everywhere, I fly our company aircraft and had a refresher course recently on new systems not a dial in sight now full fly by wire is the new norm Total automation all planning done from iPad before departure bluetooth upload automatically on sitting in seat.Can only see more of this in the future making it's way into everything we operate. Just look at any new car now we all live with it and consider it the norm.
Nearly all would not do an extended sea voyage now without and autopilot or wind instruments of some sort? We seem to trust these OK
Now must admit I do all my marine nav by iPad/Navionics and just set autopilot when used for basic use only, have installed the new Victron solar reg with bluetooth and no readouts or gauges just iPad screen.
I don't know if I would want full automation of all the systems on our sailing boat? Unless you have a great deal of information at hand or understand the basics and can program all this new stuff coming thru we will all have to live in the blind faith it will all keep going OK.
__________________
poppyduc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 16:19   #37
Marine Service Provider
 
Emmalina's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Thailand
Boat: Herreshoff Caribbean 50
Posts: 479
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Had to laugh when a 2 mill high performance cat was launched at the boat yard. All the geeks with all the techo,s couldn't get the hybrid motors to work so they towed it away with a fishing boat LOL
__________________
Steve .. It was the last one that did this !
Emmalina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 16:40   #38
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cruising Indian Ocean / Red Sea - home is Zimbabwe
Boat: V45
Posts: 1,280
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Rich,
I think it was Alfred Lewis who said we are only 9 meals away from anarchy.Most cruisers that I know or associate with are likely good for 3 months, assuming their water makers still run. Having been wiped out by a lightning strike many years ago it taught me a few lessons on connectivity and reliance on electronics. Its the third world countries that shall survive the best in the scenario you painted.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY View Post
Considering there is only enough food on the shelves in Cities for 3-5 days...the Riots, Chaos and Martial Law will be 1-2 weeks out from the Solar Flare/EMP taking out the power grid. This isn't just Crazy Rich thinking it...it's what the Federal Government planners are preparing for. You don't think your small town really needs that armored troop personnel carrier to get cats down from trees do you?

What if Glenn Beck is Right?
Cut the dock lines baby...it's time to get outta Dodge!

But can most boaters get out of the Harbor without their GPS showing them the way these days?
__________________
Bulawayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 18:25   #39
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,133
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

I am afraid most sailors CAN get out of the marina without their gps. I am afraid we still have those freaking things called EYES.

We tend to overestimate technology only to find, now and then, that the animal is alive and kicking.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 19:00   #40
Senior Cruiser
 
Symphony's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ct
Boat: ex-Tartan 4100
Posts: 446
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

more and more use of Integrated Circuit technology is inevitable:
1) cheaper - think of the cost of old amplifiers with lots of transformers and large capacitors compared to amplifier on a chip. Digital switching trounces tubes and magnets every time.
2) easier to connect - think of wireless wind anemometer versus wire up the mast. I have all of my lights, doors, window sensors, thermostats run by devices that linked with my wifi and are therefore easily controlled by my smart phone. saving hardwire connections made the process easy and cheap
3) better Quality Control - the highest manufacturing processes in the world are modular circuits. Probably some of the best are in China. The difficulty in QC for metal products versus the difficulty in QC for digital components is several magnitudes.
4) weight savings - one component weight savings may not mean much to you, but considering all the components, switches, heavy current wiring, you can gain weight savings and cost savings that are meaningful and will continue to improve
5) upgradeable without changing hardware - switches, amps, and controllers that are software can be upgraded continually via wireless or induction, meaning your hardware can remain in the boat but be the best in the most efficient manner. When we had hardware devices boats would go for decades before improving or updating.

yes, they can be a hassle to set up... I spent the better part of my first year with a new Raymarine system, backbone network, AIS, radar, autopilot, etc. with total hassle. But now it is a dream system, I can single hand the boat with ease with the AP. I have updated all of the instruments and plotter with wifi. It is very robust.

but like anything new to a boat it is a pain to sort out the first year. Buy a new boat and see how much sorting out there is to do with something that is supposedly All Set Up.
fair seas!
__________________
Symphony
Tartan 4100
Symphony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 19:35   #41
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Auckland, NZ
Boat: Bristol Channel Cutter
Posts: 124
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

I'm going to chime in too...

Like others, I'm also a certified computer hacker (in both the old meaning and the new meaning). That means I can build software like a pro and I can take it apart just as easily.

This probably means I'm better qualified than most to fix and maintain these wonderful electronic systems.

I don't want them anywhere near my boat!

What concerns me the most is that the multi-million dollar boat is controlled by an iPad. This implies that the boat is connected by some form of wireless network. That means an attacker can get to it, assuming they have the right hardware.

Given that the marine industry does not have high turn over I'm going to place my bet on the fact that they do not pay much attention to cyber security. I'd rather not have my boat as a target for hackers. A lot of people seem comfortable with that, and that's fine if they want to go down that route, I choose not to!

The other part of software is reliability. I was just commenting today about the number of software updates I have to do on a daily basis. I also know the level of average competence in the software world, I won't place my life in their hands. I'd rather not have that on my boat. Also software breaks when you least expect it and can least afford it.

On a slightly different note. I'm busy learning celestial navigation, it's a lot of fun and very interesting. I've realised that it also takes a fair bit of time. I can certainly understand why people would rather use a digital device to tell them where they are without any effort. But my concern with this is that with all that extra time on your hands, don't you get bored on passage?

On a slightly different note, how many of you can actually navigate with a sextant, chronometer, compass and charts? Lets just hypothetically say that some nations are trying to hack the GPS satellites, something as simple as changing the time by a couple of minutes on the computers on board would cause mayhem on the open ocean (You wouldn't even know if you've sailed past your destination).

A final thought. Sailboats are incredibly simple machines, why are we complicating them? This is not unique to sailing, we as a species seem to enjoy making things more complicated than they need to be.
__________________
Eben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 19:45   #42
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,133
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben View Post

(...)

What concerns me the most is that the multi-million dollar boat is controlled by an iPad. This implies that the boat is connected by some form of wireless network. That means an attacker can get to it, assuming they have the right hardware.

(...)
It is an AES256 coded data stream. The hardware is secured with an AES256 physical dongle.

Good luck hacking.

You will be lucky if you can actually get close enough to have a decent look at the girls basking aboard.

Cheers,
b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 19:56   #43
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Auckland, NZ
Boat: Bristol Channel Cutter
Posts: 124
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
It is an AES256 coded data stream. The hardware is secured with an AES256 physical dongle.

Good luck hacking.

You will be lucky if you can actually get close enough to have a decent look at the girls basking aboard.

Cheers,
b.
While I might not be able to break the AES256 cypher I've managed to circumvent crypto many times. It's not the crypto algorithm that's the problem it's how it's used. Physical dongles are good! No matter how good the hardware is the software could still be full of holes. I'd love to tell you about these systems, but I can't talk about them since it would land me in some serious hot water - the system owners take this kinda of thing rather seriously.

You'd be surprised how far away you can be with wireless technologies using the right hardware a rate limiting sufficiently. You're also assuming that the protocol is implemented a tested properly, the whole system might be vulnerable even before the secure data stream is initialised.

While I haven't personally had a look at these systems, from experience with other systems which contain data that's a lot more sensitive than a yacht. I can say that I'm not all that impressed with the state of where things are at. If people who take security seriously can get these things wrong....
__________________
Eben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 20:04   #44
Senior Cruiser
 
Symphony's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ct
Boat: ex-Tartan 4100
Posts: 446
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben View Post
While I might not be able to break the AES256 cypher I've managed to circumvent crypto many times. It's not the crypto algorithm that's the problem it's how it's used. Physical dongles are good! No matter how good the hardware is the software could still be full of holes. I'd love to tell you about these systems, but I can't talk about them since it would land me in some serious hot water - the system owners take this kinda of thing rather seriously.

You'd be surprised how far away you can be with wireless technologies using the right hardware a rate limiting sufficiently. You're also assuming that the protocol is implemented a tested properly, the whole system might be vulnerable even before the secure data stream is initialised.
.
especially when you find the passwords are PASSWORD or 123456

doesn't matter what cryptography is in use!
__________________
Symphony
Tartan 4100
Symphony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-08-2016, 20:08   #45
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Auckland, NZ
Boat: Bristol Channel Cutter
Posts: 124
Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Symphony View Post
especially when you find the passwords are PASSWORD or 123456

doesn't matter what cryptography is in use!
I couldn't tell you how many times that got me in...

Well either that or some variation on the theme. It's the first thing I try (For those reading this, I always have written permission to do this, please do not attack systems that you do not have permission to attack - you will most likely end up in prison for your efforts - you have been warned!).
__________________

__________________
Eben is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New RO Filter Technology San Juan Sailor Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 0 29-01-2010 12:36
New Solar Cell technology!! shadow Off Topic Forum 14 05-11-2008 15:12
New solar technology on the way NoTies Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 14 07-04-2007 13:00



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.