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Old 06-09-2016, 17:09   #136
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by ALAIN97133 View Post
That's an easy one ! Everything on the boat goes off... must be at the root of the electrical system. For my last offshore passage, I had a sextant with the tables & 3 (Yes three!) handheld GPS 'cause I'm lazy. My Ericson is only 34' & 6 metric tons, perfect for one guy to manoeuvre alone even in a tight spot... On my previous Chance 33 (Another 6 ton baby) I used to enter St-Barth's harbor under sail alone when my Volvo MD3B was dead & luff up alongside the dock to fill up my water tanks for the week... You can't do it now for the inner harbor is now filled with city moorings The good question should be what's the SMALLEST sailboat to do what I want to do & what's the cheapest way to do it... NOT what's the biggest I can afford with all its bigger problems Amen!

Is Sailboat.com now supplying specs. for boat mates too?
Awesome!


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Old 06-09-2016, 17:34   #137
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

I wished you were right, Jim, but we video'ed the whole thing. As I said, we have kept that film, as well. Dodging about is totally the wrong terminology. We followed the requirements of ColRegs.
Please reread the posting. We tried radio comms first and repeated these. We executed a 90 degree turn to remove ourselves from his path. That is not 'dodging about'. When he changed course yet again towards us, all as explained clearly in my posting, he again changed toward us. Being told a vessel is slow to respond to the helm didnt seem to work for this vessel. I have witnessed many vessels responding very well to the helm and Im not going to hang around in an attempt to prove otherwise. For anyone to even mentioning holding a stand-on position under such circumstances is suggesting placing one self in a very precarious position. Im surprised to read such a statement. Also ColRegs has such a position covered.

As for the myth story, perhaps, or maybe not? Possibly the location changes but I found this story again on line, just now, with a variation and the statement that the story was first hand. See the article by Clark Beek and published in "Sailing"

There are many 'first hand' stories of sail boats being intimidated by larger vessels for a variety of reason; perhaps malicious, perhaps accidental, perhaps curious - who knows. There are whole threads documenting such events so I do not think they are all made up or myths at all.
Nor I do not propose to be the vessel that finds out - I shall leave that to others that consider such events dont happen or believe in their 'rights', despite ColRegs, and regardless of good practice/seamanship.



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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
Bulwayo, one can not begin to guess the intentions of the Chinese ship, but I wonder if this was a case of misunderstanding when the ship was attempting to actually avoid you, and you as the stand on vessel kept dodging about? We will never know...

But in the case that he was indeed attempting to hit or at least scare you, well, we're so often told how very slow to answer the helm large ships are, taking long distances to execute a turn. Seems to me that if in that situation, holding course until the ship was< a half mile distant, and then powering at right angles to his course at top speed would easily avoid collision... but then I was not there, fearing an apparent madman at the helm!

And the story of the mast hanging from the anchor... i've heard that for years, always with a different set of players. I think it is an urban... no, a yotties myth.

I'm pretty ready to believe stories of incompetence in ships officers (consider the well researched and reported case of Jessica Watson vs the Chinese ship), but a ship chasing a yacht around with malevolent intent is hard to take seriously.

Jim
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Old 06-09-2016, 18:42   #138
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
I wished you were right, Jim, but we video'ed the whole thing. As I said, we have kept that film, as well. Dodging about is totally the wrong terminology. We followed the requirements of ColRegs.
Please reread the posting. We tried radio comms first and repeated these. We executed a 90 degree turn to remove ourselves from his path. That is not 'dodging about'. When he changed course yet again towards us, all as explained clearly in my posting, he again changed toward us. Being told a vessel is slow to respond to the helm didnt seem to work for this vessel. I have witnessed many vessels responding very well to the helm and Im not going to hang around in an attempt to prove otherwise. For anyone to even mentioning holding a stand-on position under such circumstances is suggesting placing one self in a very precarious position. Im surprised to read such a statement. Also ColRegs has such a position covered.

As for the myth story, perhaps, or maybe not? Possibly the location changes but I found this story again on line, just now, with a variation and the statement that the story was first hand. See the article by Clark Beek and published in "Sailing"

There are many 'first hand' stories of sail boats being intimidated by larger vessels for a variety of reason; perhaps malicious, perhaps accidental, perhaps curious - who knows. There are whole threads documenting such events so I do not think they are all made up or myths at all.
Nor I do not propose to be the vessel that finds out - I shall leave that to others that consider such events dont happen or believe in their 'rights', despite ColRegs, and regardless of good practice/seamanship.
G'Day Bullwayo,

I did not mean to make light of your situation, and can imagine your concern. Without a plot and a time line, it is difficult for me to fully visualize the play as it developed. It is possible that the ship was indeed trying to run you down, difficult to believe as it is. It still seems possible to me that it was the kind of thing that Dockhead is often describing, where the time delays between your course change and the perceived course change of the ship were in fact due to the slow response of his ship to helm commands. That is, he had started his course change before you did your evasive maneuver, but the delay made it seem to your as if he aimed at your new course... and then a similar thing happened at the second change.

I'm not a ship captain, but I understand that there are inevitable delays between command and commencement of turn, and that these delays may be many seconds long. Perhaps El Ping or one of the other master mariners on CF would comment on this. I find it hard to believe that a ship of hundreds of meters length and many thousand tonnes displacement can maneuver so rapidly as to "track" a yacht trying to escape.

As to the 'mast hanging from the anchor" myth (or true story), seems that with such a noticeable artifact, someone would have photographed the scene and it would be all over the WWW. I have my doubts, but would be interested in any verifiable events.

As I said, I wasn't there, so all of my ramblings are guesses. No one can know what the real intent of the ship's crew was. I don't envy you the experience no matter what the realities of intent were!

Jim
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Old 06-09-2016, 18:59   #139
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by Panacea2183 View Post
The US navy has finally started teaching sextant navigation again after many years of relying totally on electronics.
It's the Naval Academy that is starting to teach it again. Since most of the USNA grads don't end up as a navigator on a ship, it wasn't a big deal. The Navy never gave it up. Neither did the US Merchant Marine Academy or the five state maritime academies as the USCG deck license exam includes it.
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Old 10-09-2016, 10:55   #140
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

Jim, your constant repetition of the same point is very cear. It grieved me to keep reading it and the implication is blindingly clear. I know what was experienced (and recorded - a point made several times) plus common sense and witness experience tells me that my observations were correct despite someone who was not there making suggestive alternative comments.
If larger vessels (and I did not quantify, the figures are yours) were so unmanoeuvrable then boats would be literally crashing every day. These same boats frequently operate in harbours without assistance. In fact, there have been numerous studies and papers published on the subject, especially regarding container ships. The ability of such a vessel to adjust its course is actually very good, comparatively. I found one paper, via one of my old 'varsity on-line libraries that quantified this as able to complete a 360 degree turn within 1.5km (0.8 NM). Hmmmmmm, not so shabby. Various influencing factors come into play - wind, sea conditions, vessel speed, displacement. I stated that on the day in question the sea state was flat and that I was motoring on one engine.
One of the papers I was reading also mentioned that the average commercial ships speed has reduced in recent times. Apparently more vessels are now travelling in the 10-15knot range due to fuel economy and the additional vessels that are now touting for cargo. At these speeds the vessels are more able to adjust their course.

As for the mast entangled in the anchor......there is plenty to support that it has happened - and agree the story has likely been embellished many times over - but it doesnt mean it didnt happen despite your beliefs. Fact can be stranger than fiction.

It reminds me of another critical posting that was made by someone just today and with which I also disagree ......."Can't speak for others, but when I read a post by someone who can't be bothered to learn ........I tend to not take it very seriously. This disregard for such simple things suggest to me that a similar disregard for accuracy of observation and reporting may lurk in the info presented".
You might recognise the statement?






Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
G'Day Bullwayo,

I did not mean to make light of your situation, and can imagine your concern. Without a plot and a time line, it is difficult for me to fully visualize the play as it developed. It is possible that the ship was indeed trying to run you down, difficult to believe as it is. It still seems possible to me that it was the kind of thing that Dockhead is often describing, where the time delays between your course change and the perceived course change of the ship were in fact due to the slow response of his ship to helm commands. That is, he had started his course change before you did your evasive maneuver, but the delay made it seem to your as if he aimed at your new course... and then a similar thing happened at the second change.

I'm not a ship captain, but I understand that there are inevitable delays between command and commencement of turn, and that these delays may be many seconds long. Perhaps El Ping or one of the other master mariners on CF would comment on this. I find it hard to believe that a ship of hundreds of meters length and many thousand tonnes displacement can maneuver so rapidly as to "track" a yacht trying to escape.

As to the 'mast hanging from the anchor" myth (or true story), seems that with such a noticeable artifact, someone would have photographed the scene and it would be all over the WWW. I have my doubts, but would be interested in any verifiable events.

As I said, I wasn't there, so all of my ramblings are guesses. No one can know what the real intent of the ship's crew was. I don't envy you the experience no matter what the realities of intent were!

Jim
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Old 10-09-2016, 12:07   #141
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Re: Is all the new technology worth it?

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Originally Posted by deblen View Post
You have obviously never sailed in Maine fog surrounded by Maine lobster boats
Good luck with "right of way",AIS,chartplotter,horns,bow watch,etc. & NO Radar.
Len
Last spring I was in Maine surrounded by lobster boats in the fog, trying to use an integrated chartplotter/radar system. I might as well have had no radar at all. The chartplotter had 3 heading inputs, which were all off by as much as 30 degrees, and put the targets in really odd places when it showed them at all. I know how to use radars, and tweaked the gain/clutter/range the best I could, but it still missed a lobster boat at 0.1 miles.

This was a two year old boat, with remote battery switches, but there were manual overides for those. Worse, it had three independent data networks which did not play nice with each other.

When we picked up the boat in Florida, the first time I tried to start one of the engines, nothing happened but its screen flashed "major fault--call your service dealer". I turned the engine off, checked fluids, and tried again. The third time it started without a problem. The computer was just showing us who was boss on this boat.

Rather than conventional drives, this boat had Zeus pod drives--made by Mercury with Cummins engines so they can blame each other if something goes wrong. Kind of sexy driving into the dock with a joystick, but the yard bill for the drives so far this year exceeds $10,000. One of the problems was someone put bottom paint on a sensor for the cathodic protection systems. We tried to find a qualified service center all the way up the East Coast, but they were booked up for months ahead.

Overall, I liked the boat, but was not impressed with its systems, and would never buy one for myself.
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