Installing a shower pan, and will this toilet work?

[BigNickMontana]

I am looking at buying a Spencer 42, love the design and layout of the boat other than that it does not have a shower.

Additionally in the head it has a sewage treatment system that some previous owner hacked into the cabinet, which would really make it difficult to make the head water tight so the water went down the drain and nowhere else.



The floor pan is covered in linoleum.

What my throught process is, is to rip everything including the face of the cabinet out, personally I have no use for drawers in the bathroom, I was thinking of building a new cabinet face with 3 doors that would have latching mechanisms and a gasket around them to keep water out of the cabinet.

My next thought was to put a layer of fiberglass over the entire interior of the head, sand it and paint it to give it water tight qualities.



I was thinking the outlet could be moved out into the hallway as to completely remove it from the head. Thus if everything inside was made into a water tight surface and the floor was formed out of Corian along with the sink counter, it would mean I would not have to have a shower curtain in there to get all nasty.

My thoughts are keep it easy to clean, keep it water tight as possible.

Which brings me to my next concern...

I don't know exactly how to put this so I am just going to be to the point, I'm a big guy and when I go #2 I make a rather large poo.

I am concerned about the marine head being able to flush this down considering I can drop a bomb that is about as big around as the ID of that rubber hose the head flushes out through. Thus needless to say it could turn into a horribly disgusting situation if that happens.

Anyone have any thoughts on what I might do about this?

[pesarsten]

Lots of Metamucil?

[JPA Cate]

The sewage treatment toilet probably meets local discharge requirements, but you might want to check that out.

I do not think your poops will be a problem: all the marine heads I've ever dealt with sort of pulverize your waste and mix it with water. It's what happens after that that is regulated, and you will need to find out what the rules are and how they are enforced.

Some people go to compostiing toilets (which are mainly dessicating) in order to avoid carrying around their fermenting waste and the attendant hassles. There have been a couple of threads about them here in the last year or so. (The Google Search in CF is the better Search.)

Your shower water will have to be collected in a sump and pumped out. Some places, you are not even "allowed" to pump out grey water, let alone black water.

Since you're tall, you may need to sit down to shower on the boat, and the toilet is a natural place to do that. I think the shower curtain type of deal will be way easier to do than Corian, and shower curtains are very affordable, and easy to sponge off. Have you given thought to how you're going to heat the water? We have an on-demand propane heater, and it's vented to the outside, of course; also, we have a fan wired to the fresh water pump (which also has a run to the outside of the boat), so that we always have air circulation in the head when the pressure pump is on. We can leave it on to help the shower curtain dry on days when you cannot open the port light in the head. Heads benefit from lots of air circulation. I would not use anything slippery for the top of the shower sump, we have a teak grating that works, so it is not slippery in a rolly anchorage.

Good luck with your project. Go around to some of your new friends and get ideas from heads that work at sea (you will need a hand hold or two) and at anachor. I'm feeling concerned that you may be in danger of letting your enthusiasm for fixing her up get in the way of handling all the practical issues involved.

Ann

On edit: CF Member, Peggy Hall, has published a new edition of her book "Boat Odors and What To Do About Them". She knows more about marine sanitation devices than anyone else i have ever met. The book would be a good addition to the boat books you are going to be accumulating.

Cheers,

A.

[Cheechako]

Can you just install a shower pan (glass or tile) on the floor to collect water and drain/pump? Then just put in one of the pull around shower curtains on a ceiling track to protect the cabinetry.. You could just install it on the cabinetry side.

[UNCIVILIZED]

You might look into macerator pumps. And option 2 would be a composting head.

Also, you're going to need more than one coat of resin to fully seal things. So, were it me, I'd pigment the last couple of coats white (or perhaps tan). And then paint over it, or not.

Too, anything that you can do in order to keep water from directly striking/riding on your proposed door gaskets is going to be a plus. So plan on installing "breakwaters" around 3+ sides of each door, just as you would a deck hatch.

Plus, if you like, it'd be simple to also install bolt rope track around 3 sides of each hatch. And making up some canvas covers for each cabinet. So that when it's shower time, you simply slide the sides of the door cover into place, for a bit of extra protection.

Also, what are your plans for creating a sump, with it's own pump?

[Zach]

I've built a few custom heads out of plywood and fiberglass sprayed in Awlgrip. I won't do that again if I can help it. Custom built in place, takes about a billion hours of labor in a tight space... Namely because you can't see, can't stand, and can't sand what you are standing on... and it is nearly impossible to roll and tip them, so they end up sprayed. Spraying paint inside of a shower stall, while you stand it in is an instant white out.

The low hour way, to get water tight and paint grade is to epoxy formica panels to the plywood walls and then grind back the corners with 60 grit through the color coat into the phenolic backer and pull large radius fillets of epoxy. I like Awlgrip Awlfair... You don't really need structural panels, or structural epoxy fillets, with a 2 1/2 inch diameter or so fillet tool they get tough enough not to crack if the boat flexes.

Then once you have the fillets pulled, sand out the texture from the formica and paint with a linear polyurethane paint system in a semi-gloss...

Still, I can't think of a job that is less enjoyable than doing this... Even grinding out a bilge keel sump you can at least lay on a board. This, you end up on a 5 gallon bucket spinning around with no where to put your feet.

Zach

[Lepke]

I've made a lot of showers in boats. I make the shower pan with rsm and epoxy roller up the sides. Even if the shower is tiled, I still have fiberglass behind it. Don't drain shower water into the bilge and then pump it. Put in a sump. Shower waste will rot wood and cause unwanted smells.
It would be better to have an all around curtain so all the soap and water drops straight down. The cabinet finish won't hold up well and the gaskets will leak. A good vent system helps, too.

[BigNickMontana]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

The sewage treatment toilet probably meets local discharge requirements, but you might want to check that out.

I do not think your poops will be a problem: all the marine heads I've ever dealt with sort of pulverize your waste and mix it with water. It's what happens after that that is regulated, and you will need to find out what the rules are and how they are enforced.

Some people go to compostiing toilets (which are mainly dessicating) in order to avoid carrying around their fermenting waste and the attendant hassles. There have been a couple of threads about them here in the last year or so. (The Google Search in CF is the better Search.)

Your shower water will have to be collected in a sump and pumped out. Some places, you are not even "allowed" to pump out grey water, let alone black water.

Since you're tall, you may need to sit down to shower on the boat, and the toilet is a natural place to do that. I think the shower curtain type of deal will be way easier to do than Corian, and shower curtains are very affordable, and easy to sponge off. Have you given thought to how you're going to heat the water? We have an on-demand propane heater, and it's vented to the outside, of course; also, we have a fan wired to the fresh water pump (which also has a run to the outside of the boat), so that we always have air circulation in the head when the pressure pump is on. We can leave it on to help the shower curtain dry on days when you cannot open the port light in the head. Heads benefit from lots of air circulation. I would not use anything slippery for the top of the shower sump, we have a teak grating that works, so it is not slippery in a rolly anchorage.

Good luck with your project. Go around to some of your new friends and get ideas from heads that work at sea (you will need a hand hold or two) and at anachor. I'm feeling concerned that you may be in danger of letting your enthusiasm for fixing her up get in the way of handling all the practical issues involved.

Ann

On edit: CF Member, Peggy Hall, has published a new edition of her book "Boat Odors and What To Do About Them". She knows more about marine sanitation devices than anyone else i have ever met. The book would be a good addition to the boat books you are going to be accumulating.

Cheers,

A.

What practical issues are you referring to exactly?

I will definitely check her book out. Thank you.

[BigNickMontana]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

You might look into macerator pumps. And option 2 would be a composting head.

Also, you're going to need more than one coat of resin to fully seal things. So, were it me, I'd pigment the last couple of coats white (or perhaps tan). And then paint over it, or not.

Too, anything that you can do in order to keep water from directly striking/riding on your proposed door gaskets is going to be a plus. So plan on installing "breakwaters" around 3+ sides of each door, just as you would a deck hatch.

Plus, if you like, it'd be simple to also install bolt rope track around 3 sides of each hatch. And making up some canvas covers for each cabinet. So that when it's shower time, you simply slide the sides of the door cover into place, for a bit of extra protection.

Also, what are your plans for creating a sump, with it's own pump?

What I had envisioned for the shower pan was a piece of Corain heat formed to slope to the center with a standard shower fitting plumbed into it.

Then it would be bedded on top of a piece of marine plywood just as you would a regular shower pan.

I was thinking possibly cut some channels towards the drain with a router to give the surface some grip as well. That or could paint lines of non skid on it that would probably work as well.

I was also thinking about making the cabinet face and doors our of Corian since it wont rot. And then inside of the doors building a "gutter" that would catch any water that got behind them and carry it to the bilge.

I was also thinking making the aft most cabinet next to the toilet a bit smaller and have it house the cleaning supplies, toilet brush and plunger and to make it also a "wet locker" that would drain to the bilge. Keeping everything there out of sight but right at hand if needed.

[BigNickMontana]

Originally Posted by Lepke

I've made a lot of showers in boats. I make the shower pan with rsm and epoxy roller up the sides. Even if the shower is tiled, I still have fiberglass behind it. Don't drain shower water into the bilge and then pump it. Put in a sump. Shower waste will rot wood and cause unwanted smells.
It would be better to have an all around curtain so all the soap and water drops straight down. The cabinet finish won't hold up well and the gaskets will leak. A good vent system helps, too.

You're absolutely spot on with the separate sump, don't need all the nastiness you just washed off your body stinking up the bilge!
Wood rot is my greatest concern which is why I am considering going with Corian. It won't rot, doesn't require 10,000 hours of sanding, and doesn't have to be painted.

[laika]

I like Ann's comment not to put the cart before the horse, coupled with Uncivs advise on the bolt rope shower curtain. Would add you could always just put a cover on the outlet..chances are you won't be throwing power at it underway or at anchor when you'd actually use the shower. When shoreside, I've noticed most seem to lean pretty heavily on shoreside facilities.

I did a 12 month stint in a boatyard getting things ready to go. Fixed a lot of things that needing fixing, did a lot of things that worked out great, did some things that really don't make much sense now. Seems impossible to know what's gonna really work and what wont beforehand. ONly advise I have is do what you think you need to do. But the to-do list only seems to grow with time. Cover your bases and go from there.

Good luck man!

[JPA Cate]

One other thought, if I may:

Generally, just as a rule of thumb, one tries to learn to live with the boat as it is for about a year, and then determine which are the most pressing needs, by sailing it and anchoring out in it. See what works and doesn't, for you, and then prioritize the jobs.

We were not in the PNW, but we lived aboard and cruised, using a sun shower in the cockpit (where a bucket of sea water rinses away your shower grunge) for 18 years, with the very occasional land shower when in marinas. So, it really depends a whole lot on how high on the hog you want to live. While you're in Seattle, it may be too cold for that, and you'd find out for sure that first year, but I can see why you'd like a below decks shower. Just find out all your regulations you have to deal with, and get a good idea of marine "water closets", so you don't wind up cobbling something together that will later prove unsatisfactory.

Ann

[Badsanta]

In regards to number 2. Flush as needed then follow up with your paperwork and flush again.
As for comfort go with a household style bowl. Its not as big as an elongated home toilet but it is larger than the small round bowl. I have broken several toilet seats, so I put a big jon seat on. Nice solid fit. The seat overhangs the bowl for a much more comfortable seat and the solid stainless hinge I think is unbreakable. I went with the PS II manual head household bowl.

[BigNickMontana]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

One other thought, if I may:

Generally, just as a rule of thumb, one tries to learn to live with the boat as it is for about a year, and then determine which are the most pressing needs, by sailing it and anchoring out in it. See what works and doesn't, for you, and then prioritize the jobs.

We were not in the PNW, but we lived aboard and cruised, using a sun shower in the cockpit (where a bucket of sea water rinses away your shower grunge) for 18 years, with the very occasional land shower when in marinas. So, it really depends a whole lot on how high on the hog you want to live. While you're in Seattle, it may be too cold for that, and you'd find out for sure that first year, but I can see why you'd like a below decks shower. Just find out all your regulations you have to deal with, and get a good idea of marine "water closets", so you don't wind up cobbling something together that will later prove unsatisfactory.

Ann

It is too cold for that in seattle for sure but your advice is very spot on, and that is what I intend to do.

I know the bathroom and installing the shower is going to be a thing though because I have been driving truck for a lot of years now and I am sick to death of public shower facilities, especially those used by my steering wheel holding brethren.

Getting out of bed and being able to take a shower in the morning even if it is a boat shower is going to be such an awesome luxury.

That and having a kitchen again!

Compared to the 72" sleeper on my truck the 42' boat going to be like moving into a palace!

[BigNickMontana]

Originally Posted by Badsanta

In regards to number 2. Flush as needed then follow up with your paperwork and flush again.
As for comfort go with a household style bowl. Its not as big as an elongated home toilet but it is larger than the small round bowl. I have broken several toilet seats, so I put a big jon seat on. Nice solid fit. The seat overhangs the bowl for a much more comfortable seat and the solid stainless hinge I think is unbreakable. I went with the PS II manual head household bowl.

Thanks I'll look into that.