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Old 30-03-2016, 13:08   #16
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
They make different hot air heaters. But all the hydronic heaters are 17,100 mbh. Ok the D5E goes to 17,700 mbh but that's a minor difference. 3/4" would work for anything. But for short runs 1/2" pex would be fine too. PEX has about 20 ish percent lower friction loss then hose. Plus hose requires insert fittings which reduce the opening at the fittings to about 1/2" For the seatech CTS system 1/2" would be ok. For hose or pex with insert fittings 3/4" would be the way to go.
Not to be picky, but 17,100 MBH is a pretty big boiler/heater. Notation should be 17.1 MBH, or 17,100 BTUH.
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Old 30-03-2016, 13:21   #17
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

If we're really going to do some sh!thouse engineering, maybe the OP should lay it all out:
1. capacity of heater
2. Number, size/capacity of terminal units or convectors
3. Pump selection
4. Volume of space to be heated
5. Maybe Thermal zone of cruising area?

Has the OP already gone through this with the equipment supplier, or did he pick up a heater from a salvager on eBay, and trying to cobble a system together on his own (with all the online assistance he can get, some of which might be worth less than what he's paying to get it).
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Old 30-03-2016, 15:17   #18
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

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Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
Not to be picky, but 17,100 MBH is a pretty big boiler/heater. Notation should be 17.1 MBH, or 17,100 BTUH.
Yep, right again 17,100 mbh would be about 500 boiler hp, which is starting to get there and might be just a tad large for most vessel heating applications. Mind you, I generally work with boilers in the 24,000 mbh range with combined output of 168,000 mbh.
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Old 30-03-2016, 15:23   #19
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

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Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
If we're really going to do some sh!thouse engineering, maybe the OP should lay it all out:
1. capacity of heater
2. Number, size/capacity of terminal units or convectors
3. Pump selection
4. Volume of space to be heated
5. Maybe Thermal zone of cruising area?

Some of this we already know from the OP's location BC and boat 40' Oday.
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Old 30-03-2016, 16:37   #20
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

Crap, and here I thought I had it mostly figured out.

The Espar is the 5De.
The 1st draw on it is a water heater, likely the Isotherm Spa 15.
The next draw is a Dickinson Radex 1, 12,000 BTU
The last is a hydronic towel bar, 795 BTU.

The pump supplied by Espar is said to be 680 l/hr. The heater requires 250 l/hr.

I planned on parallel connections with the supply side main hose running in the bottom of the hull side lockers on the port side and the return in the bottom of the starboard lockers.

Maybe 20 feet to the water heater, 10 more to the Radex, 15 more to the towel bar. Total maybe 100 ft.
I'm looking for enough heat to sail from the Gulf Islands to Desolation Sound down to a minimum of -5C.

Heat exchanger sounds like a good move.

I was thinking SeaTech because they appear to be relatively easy to install in difficult to access places with 1 hand, blind.

All suggestions cheerfully considered.
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Old 30-03-2016, 16:52   #21
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

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Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
Not to be picky, but 17,100 MBH is a pretty big boiler/heater. Notation should be 17.1 MBH, or 17,100 BTUH.
Totally, completely off-topic, but that's a very American-centric perspective. A good part of the world uses the "," (comma) to denote the decimal location. And Germany, home of Espar, is one of those places. I'd guess that they would say your "17.1" is the "incorrect" presentation.

Blue = . | Green = , | Red = Alternate numbering systems

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Old 30-03-2016, 17:10   #22
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

Dsanduril,

Hmm, I thought that using a period was the British convention and existed pretty much throughout the English speaking world.
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Old 30-03-2016, 17:22   #23
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

Don't want to derail the thread, I was following it because I found the conversation quite interesting.

It is, but when copying data from a German company I can see either style popping up. Guess that's why the ISO and SI recommends the use of a space as a thousands separator, so that any other character (comma, full stop, mid stop, etc.) can only be interpreted as the decimal.
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Old 30-03-2016, 17:35   #24
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

I installed an Espar D5wsc separate from the engine coolant system. We probably won't be in an area needing to preheat the engine and I don't want the Espa heater tied into the engine cooling system due to a failure of loosing the coolant to the engine.
A fluid to fluid heat ex-changer in series with the heater core heats our domestic water. F
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Old 30-03-2016, 18:14   #25
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

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The pump supplied by Espar is said to be 680 l/hr. The heater requires 250 l/hr.
.
Does the pump list a model number. That may let me look at the pump flow curve if I can find it.
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Old 30-03-2016, 18:37   #26
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

Looking at esper pump data, it appears to be a low head pump. Nor I did not see a pressure rating on the little boiler in any of the documents I reviewed, but suspect it's 15 psig max, as most engine cooling systems are 11 to 13 psig. Tiny little two pass wet back boiler design.

The OP may need to use 3/4" hose or pex to keep the head loss down. 3/4" has a very low head loss compared to 1/2"
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Old 30-03-2016, 22:00   #27
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

I find this on the specs:

"Allowable operating pressure up to 2.5 bar overpressure max."

Another Espar sheet says a maximum of 2 bar in a pressurized system.
It is very frustrating trying to find the information that should be provided for installing a system.

I just found this in an older info sheet (the only one I could find that gives any info on a marine installation):

"Hydronic D4 / D5 heaters are to be piped using 18mm rubber hose or 22mm polypipe to a length of 20 metres total (supply and return pipe added together), use 15mm pipe to connect to components (maximum 10 metres)."

I guess I'll need to get 5/8 CTS or 3/4 CTS for the hydronic run.

Should I use a pressure cap on the overflow or just a vented cap?
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Old 30-03-2016, 23:37   #28
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

I noticed that espar lacked lots of basic data about their heaters. So 30 to 36 psig max. Use 3/4" if you have 100 feet total length.

Hum Overflow. Well the engine pressure cap will be good enough. For the hydronic side if you use a heat exchanger, you will want to add a small expansion tank like a amtrol st-5 http://www.amazon.com/AMTROL-ST-5-Th...ds=amtrol+st-5

The st-5 is oversized, but cheap. A smaller one 1/2 that size would be fine too, if you find one. These work well for an accumulator on the domestic side too.


and a small calibrated relief valve, watts 530c, set at 30 psig http://www.amazon.com/Watts-Poppet-A...rds=watts+530c

That's to protect the system components should the expansion tank fail.
Of course with a heat exchanger you'll need a separate fill point too for mixing water/antifreeze for the system.

You'll also need an air vent to purge air out of the system, install at the high point. that could be a ball valve or if your want something a tad fancier... http://www.amazon.com/Taco-400-4-8-I...=auto+air+vent
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Old 31-03-2016, 00:19   #29
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

Thanks for the product links, saves me tons of time searching.

I'll take the advise to install a heat exchanger. That simplifies the installation as well as making it safer. The engine side already has an overflow tank so no changes there. The exchanger and lines will be well below that.

Espar show both pressurized and non-pressurized diagrams. Is there an advantage to pressurizing? Just means a vented fill cap instead of a rad cap.

I thought a second overflow tank with a non-return rad cap should take care of filling. Should I still put in an air vent if the overflow is the high point of a pressurized system?
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Old 31-03-2016, 09:30   #30
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Re: Hydronic Heating plumbing question

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I thought a second overflow tank with a non-return rad cap should take care of filling. Should I still put in an air vent if the overflow is the high point of a pressurized system?
You will need some method of removing air in the piping during filling and startup. That could be leaving the cap off the fill or an air vent.

Using the cap you would need to leave it off for the initial fill and after the pump runs. Ideally the cap is at the high point in the system.
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