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Old 24-03-2009, 22:35   #1
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Hydraulic tubing; nylon or copper?

I will be installing hydraulic steering on my cat soon and am wondering if I will be able to use nylon hose for the entire run or whether this will cause "mush" in the steering. It will be a pretty long run, about 40 meters, as it is a cat and I will need to use 2 rams as there is no place for a tie bar. Hose for my installation is 6 x 10mm.

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Old 25-03-2009, 00:39   #2
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hello
the short answer is yes, you will,
I usually use ss, I use flares and compression fitting only when I have to

Depends , but in your case you have long runs
So use 1/2 inch. Tube is always OD, pipe is nominal bore in size quotes,
If you can make up off the job use a duffied flare tool, 60 bucks
it consists of a split block, which is held in vice, then a punch The tube is clamped in the block, and the punch, just one whack with heavy hammer flares 45 degrees
I have tested to 5000 psi, far greater than the few hundred you will use
Of course swages are ok, but expensive esp is ss
Do make sure you have emergency tiller facility
Good systems are WAGNER Canada
adn there is an Aussie brand, used it before but name elludes
cheers mate
just remembered it is HYDRIVE
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Old 25-03-2009, 01:34   #3
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We installed a Hydrive system in our cat, also with two rams, using mostly 1/2" copper pipe and flared connections but with flexible, re-inforced hydraulic hose in the difficult spots, probably around 10% of the total run. The Hydrive folks are death on using flexible hose of any sort except for the cylinder connections but we have found no problem with the system, very light and positive wheel, no mushy spots etc despite the illegal hose.
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Old 25-03-2009, 02:08   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHHong Kong View Post
We installed a Hydrive system in our cat, also with two rams, using mostly 1/2" copper pipe and flared connections but with flexible, re-inforced hydraulic hose in the difficult spots, probably around 10% of the total run. The Hydrive folks are death on using flexible hose of any sort except for the cylinder connections but we have found no problem with the system, very light and positive wheel, no mushy spots etc despite the illegal hose.
was it a power boat?
becuz, on a sailing yacht , with sensitive feel you will lose the sense of finguretip control no doubt
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Old 25-03-2009, 03:17   #5
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It is a sailing cat and you are very right - there is not much feeling in the wheel but it is a cruiser and will spend most of its time on auto.
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Old 25-03-2009, 03:28   #6
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Originally Posted by DHHong Kong View Post
It is a sailing cat and you are very right - there is not much feeling in the wheel but it is a cruiser and will spend most of its time on auto.
Fair enough, but on auto, THE PILOT will still have to cope with the Squish effect
A lot of pilots employ what is called Fuzzy Logic
Well the nylon tube will make things rather fuzzier
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Old 25-03-2009, 05:46   #7
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Teleflex Capilano says NO WAY to nylon. 1/2" copper all the way, with short hydraulic hoses at steering cylinder connections due to movement...
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Old 25-03-2009, 07:30   #8
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Teleflex Capilano says NO WAY to nylon. 1/2" copper all the way, with short hydraulic hoses at steering cylinder connections due to movement...
Really, cause they sell a ton of the nylon tubing and it is even included in some small kits
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Old 25-03-2009, 13:46   #9
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Motion, Capilano steering DOES NOT use nylon tubing. Period. You are probably referring to the cheaper Teleflex helms for small power boats. Really...
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Old 25-03-2009, 14:07   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stuarth View Post
hello
the short answer is yes, you will,
I usually use ss, I use flares and compression fitting only when I have to

Depends , but in your case you have long runs
So use 1/2 inch. Tube is always OD, pipe is nominal bore in size quotes,
If you can make up off the job use a duffied flare tool, 60 bucks
it consists of a split block, which is held in vice, then a punch The tube is clamped in the block, and the punch, just one whack with heavy hammer flares 45 degrees
I have tested to 5000 psi, far greater than the few hundred you will use
Of course swages are ok, but expensive esp is ss
Do make sure you have emergency tiller facility
Good systems are WAGNER Canada
adn there is an Aussie brand, used it before but name elludes
cheers mate
just remembered it is HYDRIVE
I was afraid (but not surprised) that that was the answer. I was hoping to be able to go with nylon as it would be MUCH simpler to run as I have lots of twists and turns. Also it's cheaper and I would have far fewer connections. Bad news too about the 1/2" tubing. That will be more expensive and harder to find in Thailand. Such is boating!

Thanks for all the replies,
Mike
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Old 25-03-2009, 16:46   #11
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Synthetic hydraulic hose

My latest installation uses the pre-made lengths of Teleflex hose. For the lengths used in my installtation there is virtually no "squish" and the feel of the helm is very good. Naturally the autopilot works great.

One wonderful thing about the Teleflex hose/fittings is that they come with built-in "O" rings. I noticed that finger tight the hoses did not leak. Of course I did tighten them. NO LEAKS!

There is a caveat with the use of this hose in that it must be fastened (easily done with standard nylon clamps screwed to convenient places) along its length so that when pressure is applied it does not quiver or attempt to straighten like a fire hose. That is the phenomenon that creates the "squish" feel when the hose is not held in place. The human body has various ligaments holding the large "hoses" leading from the heart in order to prevent the same phenomenon from happening because the tissues otherwise would attempt to snake around inside the body and blood would not easily get to the brain, etc. This is not to be confused with the elasticity of the vessels which act like an accumulator in conjunction with the heart.

I used to use the copper and LOVE the synthetic hose with factory installed fittings. Teleflex also has good couplings and angles, etc.
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Old 25-03-2009, 16:57   #12
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i think for power boats then synthetics are fine,I have installed many in such
I think you will find that on a larger sailing yacht you will loose even more feeling
I wonder what survey like ABS or lloyds would say,
most definitely ss beats all when fires start
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Old 25-03-2009, 17:09   #13
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Power/Sail

No doubt metal lines are most resistant to fire. There is no difference between the application in sail or power regarding "feel" of the helm. To be sure for long lengths of line the choice of synthetics and fittings are more limited in larger diameter. It is the quality of the installation that ensures a virtual zero backlash or "squashy" feel to the helm. Doesn't matter whether it is a sail or power boat.

Do you experience a "squishy" or deadband feel to your vehicle breaks or steering? Of course not...those hydraulic applications are not done with poor quality components or installation practice. I'm pointing this out in anticipation of people claiming that cable or gear steering is superior in feel to a good hydraulic installation. In addition, it is a myth that there is no feedback to hydraulic installations. Even with built-in check valves (that prevent free-wheeling) one cannot possibly turn the helm without feeling weather or lee helm and the amount. By bypassing the check valves the helm will freewheel just like a cable steering analog.
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Old 25-03-2009, 17:21   #14
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no because at least my car and trucks the lines are metal. except the last connection
Steering can not be comprimised
Fact is nylon is vunerable, if it were not then every oil hose on every application would be synthetic, to (save ) on cost
Would you run a rubber propane line? I would not
if in fact you could buy 5/8 line and more the wall size would have to go UP a lot, and so would the cost
I can not argue the cost because it is 8 years since I last built a boat, but the 5/8 lines I used were as cheap as chips,
Used same for winches and anchor capstan, and propane lines(synthetic is non complying here for latter) cheers bonjour,
1/2.065-SS stainless steel tubing
O.D.: 1/2
Wall Thickness: 0.065
I.D.: 0.37
Max Working Pressure (6:1 SF): 3250 psi
Burst Pressure: 19500 psi
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Old 25-03-2009, 17:34   #15
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Quote:
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no because at least my car and trucks the lines are metal. except the last connection
Steering can not be comprimised
Fact is nylon is vunerable, if it were not then every oil hose on every application would be synthetic, to (save ) on cost
Would you run a rubber propane line? I would not
Stuarth is right. Brake lines are 90% metal, and steering is mechanically linked. No comparisons. Dont forget that this is an instance where giving advice can get you both into trouble. Does anyone on this thread know the line pressures or even the helms this gentleman is using? Did it ever occur to you that this question might best be answered by the helm manufacturer? No steering in the middle of a crossing is serious stuff...

BTW, I WAS going to run my entire propane feed to the stove in hose lead thru a conduit...is hose bad for this too? DOH!
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