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Old 10-01-2017, 23:14   #1
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hydraulic steering questions

I am pulling my hair trying to solve a problem that plagues us since a few years now! We cannot get our autopilot to steer the boat properly. I strongly suspect that the problem is due to the steering system and NOT the autopilot. Hopefully someone has some great ideas to might guide my efforts to solve this frustrating problem as steering by hand for a crew of 2 is not that fun ...

So, I guess I have to go back to Jesus to try to mention all relevant facts (sorry if this is long but I don't want to omit important details..):

We have a Vetus Hydraulic System installed on our sailing trimaran since construction in 1980.
The cylinder is original and the pump was replaced in 2005.

The helm pump is MTP5310 and the cylinder we are not sure at all ... the set of seals we use in it is HS822 for the MT 75/80 but we think it might be a MTC52 or MT45-50?? It weight s about 14 Lbs and the length of the tiller arm is ~20" It has 4 long bolts along the outside of the casing to hold the 2 ends in place.

We have now about 5 turns of the wheel HO to HO. That is a problem for our autopilot that requires a maximum of 3 turns. Can we replace the cylinder only to achieve this reduction from 5 to 3 turns or less. Or do we need the change the helm pump? Or do we need a complete new system?

Second question: is it normal or not that when we turn the helm HO in either direction we can force it by hand indefinitely if we go slowly? Or should we feel a hard stop? The system is equipped with a non-return valve.

We have not been able to use our older and newer autopilots (Autohelm ST3000 replaced by EV-100) for a few years now and we really like to have a functional autopilot again soon! We thought the problem was caused by the old Autohelm ST3000 but it looks like using the new EV100 is even worse!

I am exploring different ways to solve the problem:
1> replace the steering (see above comments)
2> replace the autopilot with a model that is ok with 5 helm turns HO to HO like the new CPT that advertise to go up to 10 turns HO to HO (if to indefinite turning slowly is not an issue)
3> replace the autopilot with a model that include it's own cylinder and pump

Thanks anyone for your advice ...
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Old 11-01-2017, 01:35   #2
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

Hello, I have an old Vetus hydraulic setup on my boat. While I can't answer all your questions, here's what I can tell from my limited experience:

- It's not possible for me to turn the wheel indefinitely (we also have a non-return valve)
- I don't remember how many turns our pump-ram combo takes, but I'm sure it's much less than 5, which sounds like a lot. I would guess ours takes less than 3. I wonder if yours are properly sized together.
- We replaced Autohelm 3000 with a Simrad hydraulic system AP last year which works well in the system. But: we needed to add a return line between the AP pump and outside steering station, which was a bit of a hassle to pull.

I think you can use the EV100 to control a hydraulic pump as well, right? Does your non-return valve have free connections available, where you could plug in hoses from an AP pump. Then the installation would probably be simple and would just require the purchase of an electric pump + some hose and connectors.
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Old 11-01-2017, 21:22   #3
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

Thank you very much for your feed-back. I don't think either that we should be able to turn indefinitely the rudder ... I wonder if the proble is caused by the non-return valve box?? We tried to take it apart a few months ago but could not .. we were afraid to break it trying to open it so we gave up ... I wrote Vetus to get their advice .. waiting for a reply ...

As far as a small pump, you are correct, it looks like the smaller Raymarine pump should fit and is the only one compatible with our EV-100 control box. Now I wonder if that way, it does not matter there is 5 turns at the helm since we bypass the helm pump??

Luc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandibar View Post
Hello, I have an old Vetus hydraulic setup on my boat. While I can't answer all your questions, here's what I can tell from my limited experience:

- It's not possible for me to turn the wheel indefinitely (we also have a non-return valve)
- I don't remember how many turns our pump-ram combo takes, but I'm sure it's much less than 5, which sounds like a lot. I would guess ours takes less than 3. I wonder if yours are properly sized together.
- We replaced Autohelm 3000 with a Simrad hydraulic system AP last year which works well in the system. But: we needed to add a return line between the AP pump and outside steering station, which was a bit of a hassle to pull.

I think you can use the EV100 to control a hydraulic pump as well, right? Does your non-return valve have free connections available, where you could plug in hoses from an AP pump. Then the installation would probably be simple and would just require the purchase of an electric pump + some hose and connectors.
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Old 13-01-2017, 00:51   #4
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

You may want to have a look at your cylinder piston seal. Sounds like you may have hydraulic fluid bypassing from the pressure side of ram to opposite side. This could be reason the wheel can turn indefinitely.

If the cylinder is bypassing fluid, the autopilot will not know what's going on because it tells it to steer in direction but no response and keeps telling it to turn.

Another symptom is you will find the rudder will create enough back pressure to bypass fluid in the cylinder while sailing and you will be constantly correcting steering by hand(loss of control). Air in system will give you a soft feeling also.
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Old 13-01-2017, 01:40   #5
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

thanks for that ...
Today, we checked for leaks and found some under the cylinder (or we did replace the seals not long ago). We put some paper towels around everything to see tomorrow where it leaks from. We'll do more testing ..


Quote:
Originally Posted by gulfstar37 View Post
You may want to have a look at your cylinder piston seal. Sounds like you may have hydraulic fluid bypassing from the pressure side of ram to opposite side. This could be reason the wheel can turn indefinitely.

If the cylinder is bypassing fluid, the autopilot will not know what's going on because it tells it to steer in direction but no response and keeps telling it to turn.

Another symptom is you will find the rudder will create enough back pressure to bypass fluid in the cylinder while sailing and you will be constantly correcting steering by hand(loss of control). Air in system will give you a soft feeling also.
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Old 13-01-2017, 05:12   #6
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

from what I can see, you have 2 problems. The steering should not be able to continue to turn after you get to "lock" it should become hard. Sounds like you might have some worn seals somewhere in the system. The other problem appears to be that you have a hydraulic autopilot pump that is mismatches to your system. If the Pump needs max 3 turns lock to lock, the pump is always going to pump too little volume for your setup.
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Old 13-01-2017, 05:12   #7
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

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Originally Posted by lucseawalker View Post
thanks for that ...
Today, we checked for leaks and found some under the cylinder (or we did replace the seals not long ago). We put some paper towels around everything to see tomorrow where it leaks from. We'll do more testing ..


The piston seal leaks or you could say bypasses oil internally so you won't see it
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Old 13-01-2017, 05:17   #8
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcmm View Post
from what I can see, you have 2 problems. The steering should not be able to continue to turn after you get to "lock" it should become hard. Sounds like you might have some worn seals somewhere in the system. The other problem appears to be that you have a hydraulic autopilot pump that is mismatches to your system. If the Pump needs max 3 turns lock to lock, the pump is always going to pump too little volume for your setup.


The pump is normally dumb. It does not know about turns lock to lock. It just runs until the rudder sensor tells the computer where the rudder is which tells the pump to stop or reverse.
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Old 13-01-2017, 05:25   #9
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

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The pump is normally dumb. It does not know about turns lock to lock. It just runs until the rudder sensor tells the computer where the rudder is which tells the pump to stop or reverse.


Maybe the op does not have a pump at all but one of those bolt on the wheel type autopilots?
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Old 13-01-2017, 05:50   #10
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

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The pump is normally dumb. It does not know about turns lock to lock. It just runs until the rudder sensor tells the computer where the rudder is which tells the pump to stop or reverse.
Which I guess brings the question of if the pump can flow enough volume. Most Hydraulic AP's have pumps of different volumes for different sizes of ram. Eg the raymarine type 1,2,3 pumps all flow different volumes. is the AP computer setup for the correct volume.

but first the OP needs to solve the fluid bypassing issue. then deal with the AP side of things.
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Old 13-01-2017, 16:25   #11
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

Yes, that is correct, right now the autopilot is mounted on the wheel with a belt system. And it looks like it cannot cope with 5 turns.

Like someone mention earlier, I agree, I have 2 problems:
1> I can turn the wheel more than I should when I arrive HO. I wonder if that bypassing pressure can happen at the pump at the helm, in the box with the non-return valves and/or at the cylinder. Where is it the most likely?
I think the least likely is at the helm pump because that one is fairly new (2005) but I suspect it would be more at the cylinder and/or non-return valve since they are from 1980 . I agree to solve this problem first and then deal with the ap / steering control.
I am waiting for a quote of Hydrive since they told me they had a cylinder that would match my existing pump and give the helm 3.2 turns. I might also buy a new non-return box so these 2 very old parts on my steering system get replaced and hopefully that will solve the problem of being able to turn the helm indefinitely ...

With the 3.2 turns, I hope the actual ap setting with the belt will do it! If not, then I will get the small hydraulic pump compatible with the EV100 and connect it on the new non-return valve or cylinder. Anyone can advise if that pump has to be connected to the cylinder directly somehow or on that non-return valve??

Thanks for all your input...
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Maybe the op does not have a pump at all but one of those bolt on the wheel type autopilots?
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Old 13-01-2017, 16:49   #12
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

Turns HO to HO should not be the problem. My Simrad is happy at 8 turns. It's not happy when it pumps and the rudder sensory says nothing is happening, such as air in the system or a leak.
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Old 21-01-2017, 19:36   #13
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

Update and mystery is still there!

After 3 days of messing around with a friend, we are still puzzled as why the helm can continue turning after the rudder is HO ...

First of all, we bypassed the non-return valve box and there was no improvement We believe that the only reason of that part is to protect the pump from rudder backlash in heavy seas. Being on a mooring in protected water, we believe that part is not critical to our testing so we kept is out of the loop. Are we wrong???

We then did take the cylinder apart and replaced the internal seals that move oil one way or the other in/out of cylinder and there is no improvement

We figured that the problem then has to be the pump at the helm. First of all, we disconnected one of the 2 hoses going to the cylinder and turned the helm one way > it kept turning even as the rudder was HO. That should not happen since the hose was plugged, correct??

We then took the helm pump apart and everything looked in perfect condition (pump from 2005) .. except for a little muddy grid solidly stuck to the bottom of the reservoir housing.... I wiped it out with a rag. The pistons are shinny and move freely up and down on their springs ... the 2 small set screws on the bottom contains each a small SS ball that freely moves up or down. We are at a loss as to what other testing we can do now...

My friend thinks the oil is more viscous that it should. Vetus recommends using 22 hydraulic oil ... could the problem of the helm continuing to turn be related if the oil was thicker?? Anyone has any idea? I will go tomorrow in the small town 1 hour away but I really doubt I will find any 22 hydraulic oil ... could I use any substitute oil? compressor oil? 68 hydraulic? ... brake fluid? I will also buy some 4ft of 50bar hydraulic hose with hose clamps to try to use my pump on my frien's cylinder and then my cylinder on his pump to see if we can narrow down where the problem is ... before buying either a new pump or a new cylinder, I should know where my problem lies.

BTW Vetus Holland has not replied to my email and I read on forums that they are not interested at all to help fixing old system ... I will still try to call them this week and other specialists .. wish me luck and please share any insight if you have. Tnx

Luc
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Old 21-01-2017, 23:18   #14
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

Sounds like you are on the right track trying to figure out the problem and where it starts to get messy. You will probly need more fluid and lots of rags.

Questions; do you have multipal helm stations? Is all air, absoutly all air bleed out of system? Yes having the correct hydrolic fluid type and viscosity matters. Wrong type and either system can corrode or seals swell up, decentrigate due to incompatible. Vescoity matters because too thin and fluid will bypass close tolerance, too thick and system will be hard to turn.

Before you start swapping the cylinders and pumps, unhook your cylinder on the pressure side, the side that fluid will flow from helm pump to cylinder and plug that line solid. Basically you have isolated the cylinder. Following that try to turn your helm. The wheel should not continue be able to turn. If wheel continues to move problem appears to be in pump side.

If wheel is solid and does not move, hook up cylinder again turn rudder to hard over stop, unhook opposite hose on cylinder then continue turning wheel in same direction. If wheel turns and you have fluid comming from open side of cylinder, the cylinder is bypassing fluid.

Again all air needs to be bleed from system and you will need to bleed several times doing this.

Good luck.
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Old 22-01-2017, 03:54   #15
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Re: hydraulic steering questions

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Originally Posted by gulfstar37 View Post
Sounds like you are on the right track trying to figure out the problem and where it starts to get messy. You will probly need more fluid and lots of rags.

Questions; do you have multipal helm stations? Is all air, absoutly all air bleed out of system? Yes having the correct hydrolic fluid type and viscosity matters. Wrong type and either system can corrode or seals swell up, decentrigate due to incompatible. Vescoity matters because too thin and fluid will bypass close tolerance, too thick and system will be hard to turn.

Before you start swapping the cylinders and pumps, unhook your cylinder on the pressure side, the side that fluid will flow from helm pump to cylinder and plug that line solid. Basically you have isolated the cylinder. Following that try to turn your helm. The wheel should not continue be able to turn. If wheel continues to move problem appears to be in pump side.

If wheel is solid and does not move, hook up cylinder again turn rudder to hard over stop, unhook opposite hose on cylinder then continue turning wheel in same direction. If wheel turns and you have fluid comming from open side of cylinder, the cylinder is bypassing fluid.

Again all air needs to be bleed from system and you will need to bleed several times doing this.

Good luck.
Ok, I will try these 2 tests and report. Seems that oil would not cause the problem I have ...somehow either the cylinder or the pump is bypassing fluid ...
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