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Old 05-11-2014, 13:57   #1
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Hull-Keel separation issue

I currently have my boat on the hard, and among other things, am getting a bottom job done .

This morning I get these pictures sent to me by the yard that is doing the work. I'm talking with the owner by phone, he tells me that they did water leakage test, and there are no issues with it, and the bolts all seem to be in good condition. What he is suggesting, is to seal this with 5200. I was somewhat surprised that he would want to use 5200 rather than 4200, however he said if they had to do the job and take the keel off in the future, they would have to grind off the area anyways, and he felt 5200 is the better product.

Although this is the first time I'm using this yard, a good friend of mine knows this owner well and he comes well recommended.

Any thoughts by anyone who might have experience with this?

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Old 05-11-2014, 14:17   #2
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

I had a similar prob as you have on your keel some 6yrs ago an I used international water tight and last haul out at the beginning of 2013 it was still good as gold I personnaly don't like using 5200 or 4200 below water line
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Old 05-11-2014, 14:21   #3
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

How would you know the bolts integrity without having dropped the keel?
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Old 05-11-2014, 14:33   #4
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by CS Cruiser View Post
How would you know the bolts integrity without having dropped the keel?
Having done the water intrusion test, would that not indicate no leakage to the bolts?
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Old 05-11-2014, 14:53   #5
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

I do in the past a previous test when we found a crack or abnormal gap between hull and keel joint, lift the boat in the travelift and take a measure in the gap , later put the boat down with the weight in the keel and see if the gap close , if the diference is to much probably need a keel bolt retorque, if the gap is the same 5200 do the trick around the joint keels are laid with 5200 in the joint , but for filling the external joint you can use 4200 or another poly caulking product, dont use anything rigid like epoxy etc.. they crack , flexible and with a good bonding propertys is what you need... Cheers...
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:08   #6
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Having done the water intrusion test, would that not indicate no leakage to the bolts?

I hope I didn't sound negative, not my intent more to the point is what is performed during a "water intrusion test"? Just looking for info, I'm familiar with the the various tell tales regardless of what type of keel material or bolts are used, and even aware of x-ray for this purpose, just don't know what the water intrusion test consists of.
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Old 05-11-2014, 15:55   #7
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

You really can't tell the integrity of the bolts w/o dropping the keel. The corrosion will exist at the keel to hull joint, not the top of the bolts. Unless you are the PO, you just don't know what any prior owner did to that joint which could impact the test the yard did. By water leakage test, I assume you mean they filled your bilge with water and looked to see if anything passed through the seam. If they saw the water, then yes, you'd have a known issue. But by not seeing it, that doesn't necessarily mean a problem doesn't exist.

We had our keel dropped when the mast was down one season. It allowed a proper inspection of the bolts and then it was rebed and faired. Best peace of mind per $ spent since we bought the boat.

Very likely there's absolutely nothing wrong with either the joint or bolts on your boat, but I just don't see how you can tell without going through the exercise.

Additional reading:

A wet bilge is MORE than just a nuisance ! - SailNet Community

Keel J bolt replacement in lead keel - SailNet Community
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Old 05-11-2014, 16:08   #8
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Lately, and I dip my toes in this discussion tenitively with humble self taught knowledge, but it seems lately, the knowledge gleaned from keel issues, the problems don't seem to be the bolts, or just the bolts, but the integrity of the fiberglass around the keel box.
It sounds like the "water intrusion test" this explores the integrity of the fiberglass around the bolts?
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I love 5200.
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Old 06-11-2014, 00:23   #9
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

The picture looks like they already painted the bottom. If so, that's putting the cart before the horse.

Anyway, 5200 is more of a bonding agent then a sealer and once cured is fairly tough and could be ground to a smooth surface. But the cure time would probably take a week.

On mine I glassed over the joint since it was already smooth. No water intrusion that way.

One can sound the keel bolts with a hammer. If one is loose or weak it'll have a dead sound, especially if sitting on the hard, on its keel. Hopefully the bolts are made from 2205, 316L or monel. If so there will be only slight surface redding if any. There are a lot of variables with keel bolts so every reply will be different.
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Old 06-11-2014, 00:45   #10
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
The picture looks like they already painted the bottom. If so, that's putting the cart before the horse.

Anyway, 5200 is more of a bonding agent then a sealer and once cured is fairly tough and could be ground to a smooth surface. But the cure time would probably take a week.

On mine I glassed over the joint since it was already smooth. No water intrusion that way.

One can sound the keel bolts with a hammer. If one is loose or weak it'll have a dead sound, especially if sitting on the hard, on its keel. Hopefully the bolts are made from 2205, 316L or monel. If so there will be only slight surface redding if any. There are a lot of variables with keel bolts so every reply will be different.
I am just about to do this.
What glass did you use & how many layers?
Did you use regular epoxy or G-flex?
I was thinking of using a couple of layers of diolen & then three of db s-glass
over, all with hi-elongation epoxy HDB30.
Staggering the layers to elimnate any build up.

The keel joint above appears to have separation on both sides of the the gap filler. Also a halo further up and down from the joint. Looks like some kind of filler faired off a little unevenly.
The gap width between the horizontal cracks would make me nervous.
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Old 06-11-2014, 00:50   #11
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Our first Insatiable had external lead ballast, and was mounted on a stub similar to what's in the photo.

I have to second delmarrey, the sealant there on the outside should have been dug out, and re-done before painting. However, it can still be chiseled out, resealed, and re-painted when the sealant dries. We never used 5200 for the job, but Sika 291. It had to be re-done each year.

Actually, dropping the keel for inspection might lead to heaps of non-worrying. Basically, if you can tighten the keel bolts, you have to wonder why you can take up on them. Crushing the fiberglass is one reason, so if all the fiberglass has no moisture in it, it's not admitting water.

My two cents.

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Old 06-11-2014, 01:13   #12
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Here is my opinion, (non professional, 40 odd years of boat maintenance), for what it's worth.

The keel will have been attached to the stub with a sealant. If there is a problem, and the boat is out for a few days, especially if there is a bit of temperature differential during the day, there will be some seepage around, or near that joint somewhere. Look for dried marks like salt - and the antifouling won't stop it. If there is no marking, either white or brown, then you can use more sealant, or if you are sure there is no movement in that joint, then you could glass it. Grind down, 3 x 15 ounce double bias, fair, repaint. Glass at least 75mm down the lead to get adhesion.

However, that pic looks like there is some movement in that joint to me, although a pic is not like an actual inspection. Have the keel bolts been torqued ? Did they move? do they sound the same? When did you do it last?

The "water test" is not reliable. The water pressure when the boat is launched is more, as it is seldom filled to the waterline inside for testing, and weeping won't be noticed. Does the bilge stay dry? Weeping is too much!

Keel attachment is a serious issue. Be as sure as you can!
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:13   #13
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Perhaps the keel has been dropped in the boats history and rebedded on epoxy slurry.
If surfaces weren't cleaned meticulously and later a little keel movement developed this
would explain the cracks both sides.
That is way too wide for 5200 or the like unless it is just an "O" ring around the outside.
Be interesting to pull a sample bolt or two. (If they are of that persuasion.)
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:15   #14
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

I suppose my guess is a good as anyone else's...

I would say the keel has not dropped. The leading edge is still tight. It looks like some sort of crap filler is cracking and falling out.

I would remove all the said filler and have another look - leaving the option to do the bolts open for now. When ypu get the filler out and you see no gap between keel and stub I would fill it, and paint it.

Here is a nice article covering this.

How Secure is Your Keel? | Sail Magazine
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:18   #15
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by CS Cruiser View Post
How would you know the bolts integrity without having dropped the keel?
Second that, no way to know. Water intrusion test will be conclusive only when a bolt is completely corroded away..
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