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Old 06-11-2014, 08:37   #16
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

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Originally Posted by lateral View Post
I am just about to do this.
What glass did you use & how many layers?
Did you use regular epoxy or G-flex?
I was thinking of using a couple of layers of diolen & then three of db s-glass
over, all with hi-elongation epoxy HDB30.
Staggering the layers to elimnate any build up.

The keel joint above appears to have separation on both sides of the the gap filler. Also a halo further up and down from the joint. Looks like some kind of filler faired off a little unevenly.
The gap width between the horizontal cracks would make me nervous.
Yeah, I would agree with the others here on the condition of the above keel w/o actually seeing it for myself.

As for the glassing, I just used a couple layers of 12" wide 6 oz off a roll with west systems, just to seal the joint. If the keel is flexing at all, the glass will crack, or delaminate and you'll know for sure the bolts are loose or have a faulty joint. Glassing over will not support the keel. Epoxy does not stick to lead very well even when its virgin metal. But it will keep out the water until compromised. One would have to encapulize (sp) the whole keel to support it.
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:59   #17
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

avb3
The big question is how old is the boat? Has she ever had her keel dropped?

Her keel is a part of her rig, just like her mast and rigging, chain plates and such. Those need regular inspection and replacing around every 15 years. We do know that keel failures don't just happen out of the blue, but with little funny hints here and there. This just looks like lost fairing, but if she is way over due for a keel drop, it could be more. Dropping a keel is not that expensive, but are you at a yard that you trust to do that sort of work?
We will be near the pacific Seacraft factory next year, so will have them drop the keel( we trust em).

Imo Keel should be dropped every 15 years for inspection anyways, part of regular maintenance, might be time.

Erika
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:17   #18
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Thanks for the comments.

The yard told me they checked the torque on the keel bolts, and all were OK.. that would indicate no movement or loose bedding I would think. His suggestion was that in his opinion dropping the keel is not necessary at this point, however, that it should be done at some point in the future, and suggested possibly when the next bottom job is done, 2-3 years from now. He quoted me around $1,000 to drop the keel and redo. Any opinions on that price?

I DO trust the yard; many years in business in a sailboat area, St. Pete's and it came recommended by a friend of mine who is a rigger.
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:29   #19
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

It may sound like a stupid question but I'll ask anyway. What about cleaning/scraping as much of the crack as possible, rebedding/filling it with 5200, letting it set well for the needed time (a few weeks?) and then epoxy a band of glass cloth around it? With proper prep work of course.
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:46   #20
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Thanks for the comments.

The yard told me they checked the torque on the keel bolts, and all were OK.. that would indicate no movement or loose bedding I would think. His suggestion was that in his opinion dropping the keel is not necessary at this point, however, that it should be done at some point in the future, and suggested possibly when the next bottom job is done, 2-3 years from now. He quoted me around $1,000 to drop the keel and redo. Any opinions on that price?

I DO trust the yard; many years in business in a sailboat area, St. Pete's and it came recommended by a friend of mine who is a rigger.

$1000 dollars for that is unheard of, you sure he didn't mean 10k?
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:51   #21
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

You know for a boat buck? I'd do it, but if you don't have the boat buck now, then save for it later. I think a lot has to do with intended use, what are you going to do with the boat for the next two years? If like me it's just coastal and day sailing, then I think you can wait.
Then there is the question of if there is water intrusion and damage occurring, if you inspect and re-seal now, you may save yourself way more than a boat buck?
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Old 06-11-2014, 10:10   #22
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Thanks for the comments.

The yard told me they checked the torque on the keel bolts, and all were OK.. that would indicate no movement or loose bedding I would think. His suggestion was that in his opinion dropping the keel is not necessary at this point, however, that it should be done at some point in the future, and suggested possibly when the next bottom job is done, 2-3 years from now. He quoted me around $1,000 to drop the keel and redo. Any opinions on that price?

I DO trust the yard; many years in business in a sailboat area, St. Pete's and it came recommended by a friend of mine who is a rigger.
You could take the advice of many here, and gouge out what is "The Crack" and find out more details.

Here's the story of a complete keel drop

Rebedding the keel stub The Catalina Smile w/flix

5200 is SATAN'S GLUE and doesn't belong anywhere on a boat except at the hull to deck joint.

Find a better material, as suggested, for this application.

5200 shouldn't be sold to boaters. Although Dan, in the link, used it. Go figger...
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Old 06-11-2014, 11:19   #23
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Why have you not had a professional surveyor inspect this and make recommendations for repair?
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Old 06-11-2014, 11:31   #24
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

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Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
It may sound like a stupid question but I'll ask anyway. What about cleaning/scraping as much of the crack as possible, rebedding/filling it with 5200, letting it set well for the needed time (a few weeks?) and then epoxy a band of glass cloth around it? With proper prep work of course.
Not a stupid question. Many folks in the early days of keel failures did just that. Some even went so far as completely encapsulated them. But we are starting to learn that the keel failures are not just one "failure". I mean, it's not just a bolt failure(usually). But a combination of the fiberglass and bolt failure. So the fiberglass is playing a big roll. So fiberglassing to something (old fiberglass) that may be failing may not work(capisce?)
Maybe water is making little channels in the glass and weakening the area, causing flexing, which causes more load on the already old keel bolts. I'm sure the smarty pants can pipe up and state it more clearly than I.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:00   #25
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Thanks for the comments.

The yard told me they checked the torque on the keel bolts, and all were OK.. that would indicate no movement or loose bedding I would think. His suggestion was that in his opinion dropping the keel is not necessary at this point, however, that it should be done at some point in the future, and suggested possibly when the next bottom job is done, 2-3 years from now. He quoted me around $1,000 to drop the keel and redo. Any opinions on that price?

I DO trust the yard; many years in business in a sailboat area, St. Pete's and it came recommended by a friend of mine who is a rigger.
Your yard guy sounds like he is not trying to gouge you. He is recommending against it and not trying to make an extra $1k off you. He's done a water intrusion test, he's torqued the bolts. Sounds like he knows what he is doing.

What's he gonna charge to gouge it and seal it?

Only you can decide if it's worth it to you.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:19   #26
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

I would NOT use 5200. Clean out the joint and use a flexible sealant. The Sika flex 291 or 3 M equivalent product should work. Make sure first that the product is for beneath the waterline use. 5200 will create a removal issue later on.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:27   #27
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

My last Cal-39 had a "crack" at the keel join after I was aground for 6 hours. I scraped it next season and it was only about 1/8" deep and was just the caulking. Cleaned it up and applied a flexible sealant to it and it was fine.

I bet at least half the boats in the yard have a keel crack if they are bolted on units. I only say half because my current boat doesn't have one
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:46   #28
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

Now I am getting more confused. Some marine pros at our DYI yard recommended using 5200 BECAUSE it was flexible (as compared to just epoxying the cloth around the crack). But some here are cautioning against it because it is not flexible enough. What's up with that?
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:50   #29
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

West Systems has come out with a flexible epoxy that might be a way to get a permanent fix. Bolt on keels tend to flex at the join which leads to a crack at the join between the hull and keel. Any inflexible seal will be a problem. Would not glass the join as it's doubtful it would hold up. If the keel showed virtually no sign of moving, maybe but that doesn't seem to be the case with yours.

If it was me, would pay the cost of dropping the keel and resealing it if I couldn't get the PO to pay for it. Probably doesn't need it but the piece of mind would be great especially if you intend to take the boat to far away places. Doubt there is any cause for fear the keel will fall off but would go a long way for my piece of mind.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:50   #30
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Re: Hull-Keel separation issue

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5200 will create a removal issue later on.
No it won't, it'll remove at least one layer of glass when you separate the keel from the hull
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