Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-07-2012, 14:42   #16
Registered User
 
CnC40sailor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: West River, MD
Boat: C&C 40
Posts: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF
Every time this subject comes up you get the usual unbelievably low answers.

For most of us the question is, how much does it cost to keep a middle aged cruising sailboat in the same condition as you bought it in - which means keeping equipment fairly up to date, replacing items when they are worn out, amortising the replacement cost of major items, and assuming you do as much DIY as you are comfortable with

I haven't seen any evidence that the standard rule-of-thumb of 20% of the value in the first year, and 10% in subsequent years, is way out of line.
In my time of being a boater, I have never had an outrageously huge single cost. It has been many, many little things that slowly add up and create the cost. My marina fee is far and away the highest single expense I have purchased with the boat, other than the boat itself. I do not customize it, meaning change the layout from its original plan. I do the maintenance work and occasionally replace blocks sails etc.
In addition to this, I have never had a catastrophic problem that required me to be excessively "handy" and so do not see why people make such a big deal about what diy work they can do.
__________________

__________________
CnC40sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 14:56   #17
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,243
re: How Much to Maintain Boat?

So how much have you been paying, per year, more or less?
__________________

__________________
MarkSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 14:57   #18
Registered User
 
Snore's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: www.USCGMaster.com
Boat: Tartan 33
Posts: 1,881
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF

I haven't seen any evidence that the standard rule-of-thumb of 20% of the value in the first year, and 10% in subsequent years, is way out of line.
Mark I do not want to be hard, but the estimates are so rough that they are misleading. The 20% first year estimate really depends on age, condition and demands of the new owner and his (her) spouse, significant other, etc.

My 32 y/o Tartan 33 was purchased for $22,000. Haul and bottom paint was around $2BB, plus a few hundred because I wanted the correct prop on her. Nothing was wrong with the old one, just that it kept the engine from reaching her designed running RPM. The other "had to" projects were rebedding genoa tracks and the estuchoen plate where the chain plate goes through the deck, as well as fixing core damage in spots under those fittings and the fun job of pulling, a leaking water tank, sealing it and reinstalling it. The cost for the repairs was less than $150 in materials, including the heat gun I bought. Would The Admiral like to do more? Yup! But those are not needs. If I did the whole list I am probably going to spend another $4-5 BB. So if I had all the work done by others, I would have spent $8BB more. That way above 20% of the purchase price.

Oops forgot, that does not include the wind instruments I really should get...add $1.5BB. But that can wait, the mechanical wind indicator works fine. For apparent wind direction at the deck, as well as wind speed I use my cheeks. They have worked well for 40+ years of boating, so they will work fine until I get the electronics.

All that said, once the boat is up to standards, the annual should drop below 10% as the maintenance that was deferred by some of the POs will have been caught up.

Bottom line? 20% and 10% may apply to boats in good condition and are newer. Once you entertain purchasing an older boat that needs work, the percentages go up. But for those who are willing to do the work, there are some well designed, and built boats with "good bones" that need non-structural work. This allows one to go sailing ASAP with a lower initial investment while working on the boat.



Cheers

Bill
__________________
"Whenever...it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off- then, I account it high time to get to sea..." Ismael ---- NEW website! www.USCGMaster.com
Snore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 15:07   #19
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
re: How Much to Maintain Boat?

It's really all over the map. You have people who will do only what absolutely has to be done or the boat will sink. .. and you have people that are so anal they replace engines that are still running great, or any cord with some greyness to it. Adding to the complexity is whether your boat has been refit in recent past. Deck, core, hull blisters , engine work, all bump it up huge.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 15:26   #20
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
re: How Much to Maintain Boat?

I have just started with a boat that calls for about 150k right now, some 70k caused by not having that 80k spent on her last year. The boat's value is supposedly 1.5m.

I have worked for a number of people and we have our own ship too. I would say 5-10% of initial boat value on any boat under 10 y.o. is regular, if she is older, you may expect 10-15% per annum provided she has been well maintained in the first 10 years.

If the boat sits unused/unloved over long periods or if the owner is ignorant, expect higher figures, sooner. If false economy dictates not spending enough, expect accelerated loss of value.

BOAT. ;-)

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 15:55   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,243
re: How Much to Maintain Boat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CnC40sailor View Post
In my time of being a boater, I have never had an outrageously huge single cost. It has been many, many little things that slowly add up and create the cost. My marina fee is far and away the highest single expense I have purchased with the boat, other than the boat itself. I do not customize it, meaning change the layout from its original plan. I do the maintenance work and occasionally replace blocks sails etc.
In addition to this, I have never had a catastrophic problem that required me to be excessively "handy" and so do not see why people make such a big deal about what diy work they can do.
I suspect there's another reason people's perception of boat costs varies so much - record keeping. Some, like you and me, keep a record of everything. Others just total up the major items.
__________________
MarkSF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 16:01   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle
Boat: Krogen 58' Xiao Xiu
Posts: 276
Send a message via MSN to JayCall
re: How Much to Maintain Boat?

It is very hard to give a genereal reply. In my case, since I have a twin diesel power boat, I am not comparable to mos there. But, I do keep a close watch on what we spend and what we spend it on. What I would suggest, to try to keep costs under control is:

1. go back at least a year and documents all your expenses;
2. Setup a spreaadheet and identify routine, recurring expense from equipment/major/non-recurring expense;
3. For Major/nonrecurring expenses, try to schedule out what you think you may need over maybe the next 12-24 months. Prioritize and cost out each item.
4. Now you can budget those separately from recurring expense
5. Set up a spreadsheet with costs and schedules for routine/recurring expense. Start looking at what each item costs, what material is needed and what your options are for cost control. Now, you can schedule routine stuff within a budget and can also take advantage of sales etc. when available rather than waiting until you really need stuff.

It is a bit of a pain to do at first, but it helps in the long run on several counts-you can control your budget and spending, you have a good record of what is done and when, you can do your purchsing at the most opportune time, you will know pretty precisely what your boat costs to run (most of us may rather not know that!)
__________________
JayCall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 18:36   #23
Registered User
 
CnC40sailor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: West River, MD
Boat: C&C 40
Posts: 129
Quote:
My 32 y/o Tartan 33 was purchased for $22,000. Haul and bottom paint was around $2BB, plus a few hundred because I wanted the correct prop on her. Nothing was wrong with the old one, just that it kept the engine from reaching her designed running RPM. The other "had to" projects were rebedding genoa tracks and the estuchoen plate where the chain plate goes through the deck, as well as fixing core damage in spots under those fittings and the fun job of pulling, a leaking water tank, sealing it and reinstalling it. The cost for the repairs was less than $150 in materials, including the heat gun I bought. Would The Admiral like to do more? Yup! But those are not needs. If I did the whole list I am probably going to spend another $4-5 BB. So if I had all the work done by others, I would have spent $8BB more. That way above 20% of the purchase price.

Oops forgot, that does not include the wind instruments I really should get...add $1.5BB. But that can wait, the mechanical wind indicator works fine. For apparent wind direction at the deck, as well as wind speed I use my cheeks. They have worked well for 40+ years of boating, so they will work fine until I get the electronics.

All that said, once the boat is up to standards, the annual should drop below 10% as the maintenance that was deferred by some of the POs will have been caught up.

Bottom line? 20% and 10% may apply to boats in good condition and are newer. Once you entertain purchasing an older boat that needs work, the percentages go up. But for those who are willing to do the work, there are some well designed, and built boats with "good bones" that need non-structural work. This allows one to go sailing ASAP with a lower initial investment while working on the boat.

Cheers

Bill
This has no correlation the topic but with the boat I own. My boat, a 1980 C&C 40 has quite a problem with wet cores. So, I usually go to the yachtyard to fix the problem. I would like that to change. Anyway, how did you learn how to repair it? And any tips for aforementioned problem?
__________________
CnC40sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 18:41   #24
Registered User
 
CnC40sailor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: West River, MD
Boat: C&C 40
Posts: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF
So how much have you been paying, per year, more or less?
Including marina fee, 15,000-20,000$
__________________
CnC40sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 18:56   #25
Registered User
 
CnC40sailor's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: West River, MD
Boat: C&C 40
Posts: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCall
It is very hard to give a genereal reply. In my case, since I have a twin diesel power boat, I am not comparable to mos there. But, I do keep a close watch on what we spend and what we spend it on. What I would suggest, to try to keep costs under control is:

1. go back at least a year and documents all your expenses;
2. Setup a spreaadheet and identify routine, recurring expense from equipment/major/non-recurring expense;
3. For Major/nonrecurring expenses, try to schedule out what you think you may need over maybe the next 12-24 months. Prioritize and cost out each item.
4. Now you can budget those separately from recurring expense
5. Set up a spreadsheet with costs and schedules for routine/recurring expense. Start looking at what each item costs, what material is needed and what your options are for cost control. Now, you can schedule routine stuff within a budget and can also take advantage of sales etc. when available rather than waiting until you really need stuff.

It is a bit of a pain to do at first, but it helps in the long run on several counts-you can control your budget and spending, you have a good record of what is done and when, you can do your purchsing at the most opportune time, you will know pretty precisely what your boat costs to run (most of us may rather not know that!)
I like to use the neat desk organizer for many of my expenses. It puts everything on the computer and I can see what I'm spending money on. With common and rare large expenses that I personally enter them into the computer. Than order a book with correlation to the problems so next time, I will have the knowledge to do it next time.

Your list gave a few ideas I had not thought of, thank you for this will hopefully alleviate the pain of yacht expenses (can anything actually do that though)??
__________________
CnC40sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 19:03   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Boat: Nassau 42 SV Ceol Mor
Posts: 789
re: How Much to Maintain Boat?

We are in the midst of a full on refit going on year 3. We are doing the vast majority of work ourselves (except for bottom paint) and if we were to figure in lost wages the figure becomes absolutely eye watering. SHould have just bought a Gunboat...

If it helps any, we've found that it can be easy to be penny wise/pound foolish. It is not always better in the long run to go with the cheapest price. We do due diligence for every piece of equipment ad nauseum before purchasing, have found that most of the time used equipment is no bargain and we are willing to pay a few dollars more for companies with warranties and good return policies.
__________________
S/V Ceol Mor
42 Nassau Undergoing refit in Kemah, Tx
Our little blog has moved: www.theceolmors.blogspot.com
Mimsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 19:27   #27
Registered User
 
rcmpegasus's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: San Diego & Port Townsend
Boat: Formosa 51 Ketch
Posts: 143
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to rcmpegasus
Agree with Mimsy. I am 60% of the way through a major overhaul on. 1980 56 foot ketch. The first 9 months I did the majority of the work, but now I am having the experts do the rest. I did all the design and drawings, most of the removal of old
systems and structure, like decks, wiring etc. from here on it makes no sense for me to do the work, the yard guys are much more skilled than I am, they work cheaper than I do and my arthritic knees really hate working in the bilge. So, I went back to work part time and pay them. There are few people that can do the quality of work on their own boat that real professionals can do, that said the vast majority of folks in yards are not real professionals. Many not even competent. I interviewed and looked at yards across the west coast and Mexico before I decided where to go.

Bottom line is, it costs money and/or sweat to keep a boat up right. Take your choice, I think a bit of both is the answer.
__________________
Bob Mathews
S/V Pegasus
rcmpegasus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 19:28   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
reiner's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Brisbane
Boat: 39ft Challenger and a 16ft Scruffie " Oma Martha"
Posts: 266
Images: 6
re: How Much to Maintain Boat?

I haven't seen any evidence that the standard rule-of-thumb of 20% of the value in the first year, and 10% in subsequent years, is way out of line.


I think that is spot on.

Reiner
__________________
reiner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-07-2012, 10:45   #29
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,363
re: How Much to Maintain Boat?

Once your boat is in good shape, I dont see even anything close to 10%. A good example was my 47 footer. Heck, a major Refit cost less than 20%. (teak decks replugged and recaulked, new sails, new anchor gear, mast and rigging completely rebuilt, varnish work, safety gear, refrigeration including vacuum panel insulation, Added winches and stoppers, running rigging, bottom job etc.) Once that was done, 10% per year would have been $35k per year.... NO way!
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-07-2012, 10:53   #30
Don't ask if you can't handle it
 
sailorboy1's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: On the boat somewhere
Boat: Hunter 410
Posts: 12,312
re: How Much to Maintain Boat?

I hate all the percentage "rules". if I believed those "rules" the costs for my current boat should have almost doubled due to the larger size than my last boat But they only have gone up about $300/yr. I feel I maintain my boat very well and I posted my costs spreadsheet. if you take out the marina, storage, and upgrades costs out you see it doesn't really cost all that much.

But I'm sure if you aren't very handy and let your boat go and then have to pay someone else to work on it things change!
__________________

__________________
jobless, houseless, clueless, living on a boat and cruising around somewhere
sailorboy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.