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Old 20-03-2011, 09:11   #16
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pirate Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

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New question - why does the old paint need to be stripped? Why wouldn't copper coat stick to old hard anti-foul painted bottom?
Chemically incompatible... like some AF paints to each other.. maybe..??
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Old 20-03-2011, 14:38   #17
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

I'm not going to just accept the need to strip the paint. Expoy paint will normally stick to anything and most things stick to it. If the boat is barrier coated, and the current hard botton anti-foul sticks to it, why wouldn't the expoy copper coat paint stick to the old hard anti-foul paint?

I'm waiting for the expert experience answer, not user options (not being an a-hole) as we normally just accept the need to stripthe bottom. Is it just vecause no-one has tried to see if the copper coat will stick to a current AF on the boat (assumimng it is a hard bottom paint)?
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Old 20-03-2011, 14:52   #18
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pirate Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

Simple solution Don... your boats outa the water right now... paint a blob of epoxy on your AF... let it go of then push it with a wooden wedge... see what happens...
Its not really a paint... its a two pot epoxy mix with copper filings mixed in...
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Old 20-03-2011, 15:15   #19
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

The recent side by side comparison of this product done by "Practical Sailor", gave it a "POOR" for both short and long term use, compared to every other kind & brand of bottom paint out there.

I can tell you from my experience with a copper loaded gelcoat product, that since the surface doesn't slough off like bottom paint does, when being scrapped... when you DO get barnacles, they are WAY more stuck than they would be with bottom paint.

With bottom paint, when you push the blade hard, to get even the barnacle "feet" off of there, you are actually removing the outer surface of the paint, and the Barnical feet come with it. With a VERY hard, non sloughing surface, like copper loaded epoxy gelcoats, it's REALLY hard to get them off.

I also tried wet sanding the bottom to a new effective surface using SCUBA gear, with the boat in the water. It was impossible! I couldn't push or hand sand effectively, even with huge fins.

I know that if I could've made the similar product that I used "just go away"... I would have gladly forfeited $10,000 to start over with a different decision.

I have known dozens of people who tried these products out in the 90s, and they ALL, eventually painted over it with something that worked... Especially with bottom treatments... "BUYER BEWARE"!

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Old 20-03-2011, 15:22   #20
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

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Simple solution Don... your boats outa the water right now... paint a blob of epoxy on your AF... let it go of then push it with a wooden wedge... see what happens...
Its not really a paint... its a two pot epoxy mix with copper filings mixed in...
No thanks I have no interest in turning my boat into a general experiment for others. Which is why I asked the question of a manufacturer whose job it is to do such things!
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Old 20-03-2011, 15:31   #21
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

If you DO decide to use these sort of products, you most certainly have to apply it to a bare hull, or one with a 100% solids epoxy barrier coat. This is for the same reason that on my glassed over ply trimaran, which is painted with AwlGrip, I would NEVER do a structural repair on top of the AwlGrip paint... even though it would stick to the AwlGrip just fine.
I would remove the paint in the area of my repair, so that the repair is totally bonded in without a layer inbetween that is softer and "less bonded". The paint line would likely be the point of failure, because it is the weak link in the sandwich of epoxy materials.

It's the same with any epoxy, even one loaded with copper powder, (which they have been trying "unsuccessfully" for over 20 years).

If you've fallen for their argument, and want to give it a try, at least give it a fair one, and apply it to a properly prepared hull. I would also put on twice the thickness that they say, as you want some left on there after you haul and sand it every year. M.
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Old 20-03-2011, 15:33   #22
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pirate Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

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No thanks I have no interest in turning my boat into a general experiment for others. Which is why I asked the question of a manufacturer whose job it is to do such things!
Don... sorry mate...
the last person I'll believe about any marine product is the Manufacturer or their Agents... to much 'Self Interest' to be trusted...
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Old 20-03-2011, 15:58   #23
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

I am hoping the stuff is good. I applied it on our new FRP centerboard before launch last year. The board is 9 feet long and requires a travel lift to manipulate the boat while the 1-1/2 inch diameter pin is remived/installed. Cleaning/wipe down in the water requires SCUBA and at least 14 feet of water plus special tools to scrub the CB trunk.
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Old 20-03-2011, 16:05   #24
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

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Don... sorry mate...
the last person I'll believe about any marine product is the Manufacturer or their Agents... to much 'Self Interest' to be trusted...

Understandable position. At the same time it is their self interest not to B.S. becaue it ther long run that works aganist them. In business school they teach us how to play with these "numbers" so that we aren't lying, just that what wee say isn't what you think we are saying.

Meanwhile back to my basement where I am almost at the finish of coming up with the best mouse trap!
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Old 20-03-2011, 16:26   #25
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

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I am hoping the stuff is good. I applied it on our new FRP centerboard before launch last year. The board is 9 feet long and requires a travel lift to manipulate the boat while the 1-1/2 inch diameter pin is remived/installed. Cleaning/wipe down in the water requires SCUBA and at least 14 feet of water plus special tools to scrub the CB trunk.
This may well be a good application for the stuff. The centerboard & trunk have the least light & least food, so least barnacle growth. We now bottom paint our board and 1' up into the trunk, but for the first 8 years, only had the Coppercrapsky coating. The growth seemed to be limited to the bottom 6" of the slot, and front 6" of the centerboard. Way up in the trunk is naturally growth resistant.

I still dive on our boat every time we go out, if more than a week has gone by. M.
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Old 20-03-2011, 16:26   #26
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pirate Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
Understandable position. At the same time it is their self interest not to B.S. becaue it ther long run that works aganist them. In business school they teach us how to play with these "numbers" so that we aren't lying, just that what wee say isn't what you think we are saying.

Meanwhile back to my basement where I am almost at the finish of coming up with the best mouse trap!
Don... your too late mate...
I invented that 30yrs ago..... its really simple... create a box with only one way in... half way in is a board with a slot in the top that the mouse can just get his head over...
For at least 2 weeks put a nice piece of cheese behind the board... the mouse comes in, looks over the board... grabs the cheese and is happy...
by day 14 he's just running in, sticking his head over and grabbing the cheese... total confidence....
Day 15... different tactics... very sharp blade in slot at top of bar... no cheese..
Mouse comes in... looks over and thinks "Where's the Bludi Cheese"...
Looks left.. looks right... and cuts his throat in the process... works every time..
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Old 20-03-2011, 17:44   #27
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I used Copper epoxy and it worked ok in fresh water. Once I moved the boat to Charleston SC I put bottom paint over it due to the heavy growth. Basically I think the copper bottom acted like a barrier coat. I would not use it again.
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Old 20-03-2011, 20:21   #28
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
I'm not going to just accept the need to strip the paint. Expoy paint will normally stick to anything and most things stick to it. If the boat is barrier coated, and the current hard botton anti-foul sticks to it, why wouldn't the expoy copper coat paint stick to the old hard anti-foul paint?

I'm waiting for the expert experience answer, not user options (not being an a-hole) as we normally just accept the need to stripthe bottom. Is it just vecause no-one has tried to see if the copper coat will stick to a current AF on the boat (assumimng it is a hard bottom paint)?
You don't need an 'expert' to tell you that applying epoxy based copper coat over anti foul is a bad idea do you?

I can tell you that applying that stuff over a badly prepared, inappropriate surface will end in failure. I've been working beside a boat this week where the stuff is sloughing off because the Owner felt he could save a few bucks on the preparation side of things. It's failed after less than 2 seasons in the water and he has wasted $ thousands to save $ hundreds. Next to it is a boat which was Coppercoated well over 5 years ago and it looked mint after a pressure wash.

Go to the Coppercoat website and read the technical literature - don't expect to get 'expert' advice here!
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Old 22-03-2011, 00:42   #29
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

Just curious, but since your product doesn't conduct electricity, I'll assume this is because of individual copper particulate encapsulation, at the very least, between the adjoining particulates a plastic membrane, breaking the bond carry. So, how does copper get exposed to the beasties that would like to live on the surface, if there is sufficient plastic coating to prevent continuity among the particulates?
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Old 22-03-2011, 04:50   #30
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Re: Has Anyone Used Copper Coat Antifouling

As Muskoka stated, preparation is the key to any good paint job. We require the removal of old anti-fouling paint to insure that we get a proper bond to the barrier coat or gelcoat. If you read most anti-fouling application guides you will see that the manufacturer wants the old paint removed unless it is the same brand and type and then it needs to be sanded. There are no shortcuts in a good paint application process. I have been in the marine coatings business for over 15 years and have made just about every mistake that can be made in applying coatings. I try to give our customer the best advice I can to make sure they don't have any issues with the application process.

The copper we use in Coppercoat is 99.6% pure atomized copper. It is so fine that when it is mixed with the epoxy it is spread evenly throughout the mixture. The epoxy will wear away at about a 1/4 of a mil per year which is enough to keep exposing new copper. Coppercoat needs to be cleaned from time to time depending on how much you use your boat and where you are located. It does not need to be sanded every year to keep the copper exposed like some of the other copper/epoxy coatings from the past.

We failed the Practical Sailor Anti-fouling Test because the panels were not wiped down during the time of the test. It was interesting that it took almost a year for it to get any hard growth without being cleaned. Most people we talk to at boat shows get their boat bottoms cleaned from time to time. Our customers tell us that it is easier to clean than other paints that they have used and most say they clean it with a cloth.
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