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Old 11-04-2013, 14:17   #46
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

So much to digest, and so worthwhile...

It's not often a single vessel accumulates such a welter of ingenious and well-thought-out improvements.

Poring over such ideas and having the rationale laid out is a rare opportunity in real life for like-minded souls, and is usually only available in small doses, so it's particularly generous of you to offer that opportunity, in quality and quantity, to the world at large...

Nice detail with the steering wire derail reset bolts. Apart from being very tidy (which personally I find is typical of your ideas) I can see some ways that it's better than my suggestion, particularly because it signals a problem with a loose wire through the wheel, whereas mine masks it.

I think there's an element of that same "masking" with auto bilge pumps, whose use I personally think should be restricted, and -- if fitted -- whose actuation should trigger loud and bright alarms!

It's not unheard of for a minor accumulation of unnoticed issues gradually to overcome the ability of the system, flatten the batteries and (if temporarily unattended) sink the boat.

I've been agonising over how to integrate my Dickinson cooker stack with my deck design. Your ring aperture in the deflector rails is purest genius.

I've also been mulling over your second anchor in the hawse. I think it sets new standards for tidiness. (The Forfjord is a piece of industrial art, methinks, and it looks as though it was designed for the sole purpose of gracing your bow...)

It also seems to me it could be a real asset in several situations. I'm thinking for instance of conditions which led to you sheering heavily at anchor (the mast being well forward, I wonder if you sometimes find this happens?)

If you dropped the Forfjord under the forefoot, so it just bounced across the bottom, it might make a perceptible diff. I guess you will have thought of this, but it does strike me that the location of the anchor relative to the other makes this particularly easy, as well as unlikely to tangle - if the wind direction changes, provided there's plenty of it, there seems little reason for the rodes to interfere.

This idea can also work (and in some ways is better and safer) with a heavy kellet than an anchor, but a competent anchor has a second benefit, it seems to me.

Having such an anchor already on the bottom means it takes only moments to let out more scope on that anchor if the main anchor should (for instance) pick up some trash, embrace a boulder or a ball of weed and manage to pull it free, or whatever... and let go as a consequence. (Of course, with your setup, it would be almost equally as quick even if it were still at the hawse)

One compromise I've seen people do is to lower the second anchor with a pile of chain on the foredeck ready to go, cleated off at the bitter end, but a weak link is contrived where the outboard end of the chain connects to the boat

This is so the second anchor is kept on short scope under normal circumstances (and hence unlikely to tangle, and easy to recover) ... but will self-set if the strain comes on.

If the weak link is ingeniously rigged, (eg a toggle pulled out by a messenger attached to the chain a metre outboard of the hawse, the messenger than being led aboard aft of the hawse) it may come under strain, and hence set the anchor, only in the situation where the second anchor chain is 'growing' forrard, rather than abeam .... so that you don't get spurious setting from sheering alone.

Sorry to end up writing another essay, I seem intent on monopolising your thread with scarcely relevant and probably esoteric ramblings.
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Old 11-04-2013, 17:05   #47
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post

It also seems to me it could be a real asset in several situations. I'm thinking for instance of conditions which led to you sheering heavily at anchor (the mast being well forward, I wonder if you sometimes find this happens?)

If you dropped the Forfjord under the forefoot, so it just bounced across the bottom, it might make a perceptible diff. I guess you will have thought of this, but it does strike me that the location of the anchor relative to the other makes this particularly easy, as well as unlikely to tangle - if the wind direction changes, provided there's plenty of it, there seems little reason for the rodes to interfere.

This idea can also work (and in some ways is better and safer) with a heavy kellet than an anchor, but a competent anchor has a second benefit, it seems to me.

Having such an anchor already on the bottom means it takes only moments to let out more scope on that anchor if the main anchor should (for instance) pick up some trash, embrace a boulder or a ball of weed and manage to pull it free, or whatever... and let go as a consequence. (Of course, with your setup, it would be almost equally as quick even if it were still at the hawse)

One compromise I've seen people do is to lower the second anchor with a pile of chain on the foredeck ready to go, cleated off at the bitter end, but a weak link is contrived where the outboard end of the chain connects to the boat

This is so the second anchor is kept on short scope under normal circumstances (and hence unlikely to tangle, and easy to recover) ... but will self-set if the strain comes on.

If the weak link is ingeniously rigged, (eg a toggle pulled out by a messenger attached to the chain a metre outboard of the hawse, the messenger than being led aboard aft of the hawse) it may come under strain, and hence set the anchor, only in the situation where the second anchor chain is 'growing' forrard, rather than abeam .... so that you don't get spurious setting from sheering alone.

Sorry to end up writing another essay, I seem intent on monopolising your thread with scarcely relevant and probably esoteric ramblings.
It's all good Andrew, ramble away....

Re: Shearing at anchor. I have not yet anchored Panope while in it's current configuration (pilot house sloop) in any kind of strong wind. In her former incarnation (poop deck schooner), she did not move much at all while at anchor.

Granted, I did move windage forward by putting a taller mast in the foremast position and eliminating another mast from a point behind the center of lateral resistance. However, I removed a long bowsprit, bobstay, pulpit, and furled head sail (on boom) from a point far ahead of her bow. Also, the pilot house addition has got to be good for a similar amount of windage as the old mainmast. Lastly, The dinghy is much higher in the davit (allows the ability to rotate the dinghy over the stern rail and to have rearward visibility when seated in the pilot house) than before so more windage aft again.

My gut feeling is the shearing will continue to not be an issue with Panope.

Side note: I have wondered about traditional, round section masts and how they compare to modern, steamlined masts when the wind is from the beam. It seems that a round section mast might present less drag in this case.

Re: Second anchor use. Yours, are very interesting ideas for utilizing the second anchor that I will file away for future use perhaps. I certainly did not think as far into the future as you have. I just wanted another big anchor up front to keep the (now lighter) bow down and I was drawn to the Forfjord in a Hawse idea by its classic form (it looks like an anchor). Time will tell how it actually gets used. It will certainly send a clear message to another skipper who is contemplating an aggressive violation of my right of way by crossing Panope's bow in a vessel of light duty constuction.

Edit: Note. The Forfjord stows perfectly in the bow roller and is equally intimidating in that position as well.

Also, I have thought that the Forfjord might make a usable emergency boarding ladder. It is a bit higher than the waterline, but certainly lower than the lowest part of the gunwale. Maybe I will tie a loop of rope to one of the flukes (keep it just above water so it does not grow a beard) to form a first "step"

Steve
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Old 11-04-2013, 17:59   #48
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
So much to digest, and so worthwhile...
It's not often a single vessel accumulates such a welter of ingenious and well-thought-out improvements.
+1, Great inspiration here in this thread, many thanks. Now just got to get me a spool gun...

Quote:
I think there's an element of that same "masking" with auto bilge pumps, whose use I personally think should be restricted, and -- if fitted -- whose actuation should trigger loud and bright alarms!
I lost half our fresh water once on the way to Tonga, when water from a slowly leaking loose pipe got pumped quietly overboard by the auto pump...

Quote:
If you dropped the Forfjord under the forefoot, so it just bounced across the bottom, it might make a perceptible diff. I guess you will have thought of this, but it does strike me that the location of the anchor relative to the other makes this particularly easy, as well as unlikely to tangle - if the wind direction changes, provided there's plenty of it, there seems little reason for the rodes to interfere.
We used this occasionally on my folks gaff ketch, It worked well to reduce the shearing about, but tangles could still occur in some fluky or light conditions.
Best only use both in steady strong winds.
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Old 11-04-2013, 18:27   #49
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

thanks for underlining that, SnowP - good 'double play'...

On reflection, I reckon my "provided there's plenty of it" was a bit cryptic.

I should also clarify that in raising the possibility of sheering, I'm not thinking of aimless wandering about in fluky conditions, but purposeful and potentially anchor-snatching excursions - but having lowered the anchor to deal with the latter, it's clearly a tactic which should be abandoned if the wind drops and a "circle dance" looks like a possibility.

I think your warning is particularly important in the context of all-chain on both rodes - not sure if this applies to the OP, as I notice there's a warping drum on the second rode...
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Old 11-04-2013, 19:35   #50
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

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+1, Great inspiration here in this thread, many thanks. Now just got to get me a spool gun...
Thanks for the encouragement Snowpetrel,

Your desire to also do some welding on your boat reminded me that I should comment about the fire hazard of welding on a foam insulated aluminum boat.

Panope was insulated with blown in foam by the builders of her hull in 1976 (Greenwich yachts of Vancouver B.C. - defunct). I do not know the composition of this foam. Only that it is aggressively flammable and that the fumes of combustion are terribly nasty and toxic.

When I started this project, The first area that I welded was above the non-lined lazarette. This gave me the opportunity to remove the foam opposite of welding areas. With a fire watch person positioned below and armed with hoses and fire extinguishers, I began to weld.

What I learned right away was that the thin residual coating of foam smoldered terribly (bad for the fire watch person) but never ignited. I then did tests (on Panels that were being cut out and discarded) with the foam 100% intact. What I found was that unless I used waaay too much heat and literaly burned a hole in the metal, nothing at all happened to the foam. I think the thick, intact layer of foam was preventing ignition by starving the area of oxygen.

From that point on, I never removed a bit of foam unless welding on the inside of the boat.

I got so confident/cocky that I did not even remove the interior paneling opposite welding areas. I did this only when the weld that needed to be done did not need to be "full penetration". For instance, the lower, front edge of the pilot house was lightly welded without disturbing the paneling above the galley.

I always kept a fire watch person down below with hoses, fire extinguishers and battle axes (to immediately crash through paneling at the first sign of smoke).

In areas that required stronger welds, I drilled 2 inch diameter holes in the interior paneling at inconspicuous spots and flooded the foam with water during welding (manual bilge pump needed to be installed 10 years before she hit the water!).

There have been many metal boats that were torched by welding during re-fits. I know that I have broken a few safety rules and gotten away with it. Maybe I am stupid and lucky.

Steve
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Old 11-04-2013, 19:37   #51
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

NICE! Very salty! The hand of the builder is obvious everywhere you look. The wheel would take a while for me to get used to, but I am not the one who has to get used to it. Same with lack of holding tank, or the rig. You did things your way and you did them all well, with plenty of forethought, and you are going to enjoy your very fine boat for a very long time. Congratulations! What a magnificant project! I am just in awe.
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Old 11-04-2013, 19:47   #52
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I think your warning is particularly important in the context of all-chain on both rodes - not sure if this applies to the OP, as I notice there's a warping drum on the second rode...
My #2 rode (thru hawse) is 80 feet of chain and 350 feet of nylon. That last 80 feet of chain is a little rough on the drum but at the rate that I will use that rode, the drum should last a few hundred years.

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Old 11-04-2013, 19:56   #53
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

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NICE! Very salty! The hand of the builder is obvious everywhere you look. The wheel would take a while for me to get used to, but I am not the one who has to get used to it. Same with lack of holding tank, or the rig. You did things your way and you did them all well, with plenty of forethought, and you are going to enjoy your very fine boat for a very long time. Congratulations! What a magnificant project! I am just in awe.
Thanks Growley,

Ya, I might end up with a kink in my neck (on those long motor passages to Alaska) because of that helm position. I suppose the best answer to that problem would be an autopilot. An autopilot completely goes against my philosophy of simple and homemade but, like the radar (I cannot see through fog), that may be the only viable alternative.

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Old 11-04-2013, 23:08   #54
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

Fore deck hatch/seat

Panope has a dry, safe fore deck. In fact, in the 19 years that my father and I have used the boat (in the water), we never had any green water aboard this area (this includes the trip from Washington to Baja). It is a great place to hang out - even under sail. However, there has never been a comfortable place to sit.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned my goal of eliminating wood from the exterior of Panope. I do love wood and I love working with wood. However, as much as I love building things - I hate general, ongoing maintenance.

In consideration of the above, I am building a new Fore deck hatch (to replace the old wooden example) that doubles as a snug seat for two.

The "box" part is 3/16" plate. The tube is 1 inch schedule 40 pipe. The top is 1/4 inch Lexan to provide light into the V-berth and sanded opaque to provide privacy. Some sort of webbing or macrame will be stretched into the backrest. I will likely paint the box portion. Not completed yet are homemade hinges that will be welded to hatch and deck - naturally.

Note: The bent portion of the seat back is the only part of this refit that I annealed (removed heat treating). In the annealed condition, 6061 becomes quite soft and weak. I was able to make these particular bends with my hands and knee. I do not own any benders or dies. For the other tube projects like the handrails, I did not anneal the tubing so as to retain full strength. Bending was done by wedging between two strong points and using cheater bars.

Steve
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Old 11-04-2013, 23:53   #55
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

Nice, Steve !

On our first boat, we put in many happy hours en-route on the foredeck, sitting (or lying) on our substitute for dinghy/liferaft.
Not surprisingly we tended to do this only with the wind broad of the beam, ours was a wet little foredeck on other points of sail...

Our little inflatable was a canvas oval boat, into which was cunningly laced a tractor inner tube -- which it used for flotation.
It closely resembled a rolled condom. Or one of those modern pool toys, except it was industrial strength.
It was lashed over the forehatch on passage. We found the jibsheets would catch on the lashings, so we added some padeyes in such a location that the lashings diverged from the dinghy down to the deck, and that fixed it.

It lived happily there, except for one time when it was blowing so hard when we got to our anchorage that we took it into the cabin to reduce the windage, and ran a line to a ship's mooring buoy for good measure....

Not rowable, but it paddled nicely with a single-ended paddle if you kneeled in the bow and used drawstrokes towards you (20' offshore sailboat: too small for anything more ambitious)



I'm guessing that with the backrest so close to the mast, you have established that you won't have any issues with the headsail sheets catching against the upright siderails.

However, anyone seeing this and thinking of using a similar idea for a forehatch placed further from the mast might want to consider sloping the uprights to reduce this risk, possibly?
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Old 12-04-2013, 00:11   #56
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

As for the wheel location, I thought it was a great idea ... not least because it seemed to me it would be trivially easy to extend the shaft through a gland bearing on the aft bulhead and fit another coaxial wheel out in the cockpit if it eventually proved desirable...

(Possibly if you did this, you could swap the spoked wheel to outside, and fit a slightly smaller, perhaps unspoked wheel inside?)

I'm really interested and intrigued by the way you arranged the steering chains to give a 2:1 mechanical advantage to the chain. I'm guessing the second and fourth chain runs, counting outboard from the companionway, are dead ended to the bulkhead?

Was this mainly to cut the sprocket size on the wheel axle, so you could get that axis closer to the door jamb? I'm sure I'm way offbeam here, but it would be interesting to know what drove you in the direction of this ingenious solution.

ON EDIT: of course I'm offbeam: your solution requires a bigger sprocket for the same gearing, not a smaller one, than a more conventional endless chain - Doh !
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Old 12-04-2013, 09:18   #57
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
As for the wheel location, I thought it was a great idea ... not least because it seemed to me it would be trivially easy to extend the shaft through a gland bearing on the aft bulhead and fit another coaxial wheel out in the cockpit if it eventually proved desirable...

(Possibly if you did this, you could swap the spoked wheel to outside, and fit a slightly smaller, perhaps unspoked wheel inside?)

I'm really interested and intrigued by the way you arranged the steering chains to give a 2:1 mechanical advantage to the chain. I'm guessing the second and fourth chain runs, counting outboard from the companionway, are dead ended to the bulkhead?

Was this mainly to cut the sprocket size on the wheel axle, so you could get that axis closer to the door jamb? I'm sure I'm way offbeam here, but it would be interesting to know what drove you in the direction of this ingenious solution.

ON EDIT: of course I'm offbeam: your solution requires a bigger sprocket for the same gearing, not a smaller one, than a more conventional endless chain - Doh !
I agonized (10 years) over the wheel location/engineering more than any other part of this rebuild.

I toyed with the idea of letting the wheels shaft protrude through the aft wall of the pilot house as you mentioned. I elected not to for simplicity. It turns out that the wheel just inside the companion way works great when standing on the aft deck. If it is raining, the sliding hatch is closed to keep the interior dry. The helmsman cannot easily see the wheel with the hatch slid closed but the reach to the wheel remains perfect.

Another problem with an outside wheel on that same shaft is the interference with the port companion way door.

I needed the 2 to 1 mechanical advantage primarily because the quadrants "radius" was limited to about 1 foot. I was shooting for 6 turns of the wheel stop to stop and the smallest diameter sprocket was still to large (unless I downsized the shaft diameter and chain).

Also, distance from the wheel to the turning sheaves below is to small to allow 1 to 1 chain gearing even if I could have fitted a larger quadrant.

Yes, the 2nd and 4th (from left) chains are fixed at their upper ends. The 4th chains termination is also the tension adjustment for the whole system. There is a wing nut (just out of view in Pic#2) that is accessible to the helmsman.

And yes, I needed to get the shaft center line as close as possible to the companion way edge because there simply was not enough room for the wheel. As it is, I had to cut a couple of inches off the spokes (that hurt - my father built that wheel (1975) before Panope's empty hull arrived in our driveway). Additionally, I had to cut a hole in the side wall of the pilot house and create yet another "blister" to keep the elements out.

Last picture is of dad building the wheel.

Steve
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Old 12-04-2013, 09:33   #58
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

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Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
I'm guessing that with the backrest so close to the mast, you have established that you won't have any issues with the headsail sheets catching against the upright siderails.

However, anyone seeing this and thinking of using a similar idea for a forehatch placed further from the mast might want to consider sloping the uprights to reduce this risk, possibly?
My thinking (hope) is that this will not be a problem. The jib is set very high to allow forward visibility from the pilot house. The "lazy" jib sheet remain quite high.

Streve
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Old 12-04-2013, 14:00   #59
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

Panope

What a great story this is turning into !

Nice balance of technical and human interest... (ever thought about a book? including stories from the schooner days)

Thanks for indulging my immoderate curiosity about details - that steering system is a sheer delight to a mechanismophile...

I should have joined the dots better: I'm thinking now you see the only disadvantage of the location of the wheel being the postural implications when steering from inside the house?
I was looking at it through the wrong lens, given that you've affirmed the purpose as being "inside passage" rather than offshore, (where it might conceivably be necessary to have the doors dogged shut while steering from the cockpit)

I was going to ask how you formed the domed ends of the blister, but when I opened the photo close-up (great photo quality, BTW) I think you must have hogged it out of solid round bar ! (Did you use a router with a big semicircular bit to hollow it out? - or am I way off beam again?)

I collaborate with a neighbouring machine shop who make a lot of repair and replacement parts for aeroplanes (military and civilian) and it was quite boggling for a frugal wee soul like me to see them producing slender angles and I Beams weighing a pound or so, along with 44gal drums full of swarf, from massive billets of certified 7075

7075 as you probably know is one of the aerospace alu alloys, which regrettably fizzes in salt water. I say regrettably because it's amazingly strong and wonderfully nice to machine. However a friend tells me Optimist masts at the racing level - and not just elite racing - are now made from it.

The world's gone crazy, when a cheap boat for kids has morphed into this fragile parody of the old chestnut which describes sailing as 'going nowhere slowly at huge expense'
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Old 12-04-2013, 14:36   #60
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Re: Happiness is a Warm Spool Gun

Great looking welds ,you are a true artist.Someone was asking about a proper companionway on here ,I think you have ...good luck ...
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