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View Poll Results: What type of epoxy to use for suction filling a void in the Skeg.
CPES Penetrating epoxy (i.e Smith's) 0 0%
Standard low-viscosity epoxy 2 100.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-11-2009, 12:40   #46
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Exotherm

Hey fish, before you fill the skeg with resin, do be sure to check with the manufacturer of the resin on how big a volume you can safely have at one time. Epoxy will exotherm out of control if there is too much of it in one volume. I have seen as little as 200 grams (Epon 815, 30 min. gel time) in a paper tub catch fire.
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Old 10-11-2009, 12:53   #47
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correction

Sorry, that was 300 grams, 200 was the safe limit in a 4" dia tub.
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Old 10-11-2009, 13:08   #48
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Originally Posted by Solitude View Post
Hey Fish

If you want to check for more water leaks before you dry it out couldn't you use a reverse shopvac and blow air ito the skeg. Use a soapy spray bottle and squirt it around to look for bubbles. Like a bike tire.... Find all the waterleaks and then fix... like Jedi is sayin
Exactly how we found it. A little soapy water, blow the air, look for the bubbles. It is not a true "void" I don't think. More like a bit of delam. It takes a lot of pressure to make a little bit of bubbles. But we are NOT cutting the skeg off unless absolutely necessary. Passed a hammer test ok. The skeg is not cored, it is solid laminate.

Re Resin volume: use slower hardner to limit exotherm......?
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Old 10-11-2009, 13:22   #49
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exotherm

Slower hardener will help for sure but to be sure I would still check with the manufacturer. As the epoxy starts to cross link it generates heat, which excellerates the reaction and so one and so forth so your slower hardener isn't so slow anymore. Sounds like you don't have a huge volume to fill but better to be safe than sorry. Once it starts you won't be able to do anything about it but watch, or dump water in on top of it, which depending on the resin volume may not be enough. I'm sorry you got such a Pandora's Box, but we are all learning from you.

All the best
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Old 10-11-2009, 13:32   #50
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FWIW, Dont use CPES in this application. It isn't designed to have any strength. Low vis and the absolutely slowest hardener you can find. I guess you can suck it in under vacuum but you'll need some sort of trap before your pump. I second checking with the Mfr. to see the max volume you can infuse at one go.
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Old 10-11-2009, 13:34   #51
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Slower hardener will help for sure but to be sure I would still check with the manufacturer. As the epoxy starts to cross link it generates heat, which excellerates the reaction and so one and so forth so your slower hardener isn't so slow anymore. Sounds like you don't have a huge volume to fill but better to be safe than sorry. Once it starts you won't be able to do anything about it but watch, or dump water in on top of it, which depending on the resin volume may not be enough. I'm sorry you got such a Pandora's Box, but we are all learning from you.

All the best
HAH! Don't watch too close, you might see me screw it up!
Actually it's not so bad. We're learning too that's why the game of "1000 Questions".
Re: data: I get the idea on that. Heck, if I have to I'll ice down the bugger. Winter'll be here soon and things will be cooler. (I hope! this IS South Texas!)
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Old 10-11-2009, 19:57   #52
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Screw ups

I'll tell you about screw ups. You will notice in the pics below the nice red boot stripe. I used some less than fresh paint and it never realy cured, so when I went to apply the bottom paint (way less than fresh) the strip curdled the bottom paint that covered it. Incompatable solvent bases. All you can do is scrape, wash with MEK and try to feather in the new paint. I abandon the boot strip idea and just ran the bottom paint all the way up.

I had to remove 40+ years of bottom paint, which took most of the gell coat with it. Then West Systems epoxy. If I can do this, anyone can.

best fishes
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Old 10-11-2009, 21:52   #53
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Expandable foam would be a bad idea. Might explode your hull/rudder if out of control.
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:45   #54
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Jedi is on to something, he just beat me to it. 2x sided tape around the vacumm hole, put a cheap or old shop vac running, you might burn it up. leave her overnight. Now for the other side (other hole). Go rent a drum of nitrogen, like you see at the base of telephone poles where you have troubled cable. 2x tape a hose from the drum (you will need a regulator too.) to the top hole using the tape and test it for airtight using bubbles.

Now after you have pumped up the skeg with nitrogen undr low pressure (3lb) and let the drum go empty, if you have a mosture meter check it each step of the process and compare. Just let her blow through and purge.

Now back to the shop vac. West 6x10 is a calking tube of epoxy, shoot as many as necessary in the high hole with the vac running and hope to see it coming out of the vac hole b4 setup. You pull this off as I said, with a little luck there will be no voids, it will be dry as a bone and solid.

The nitrogen trick is what I usta do with wet telephone cables if non accessable such in the middle of a duc run under a street. Should work for a skeg as well. The gas will displace water and move it out.

Hobart
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:17   #55
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Aww man.....

Dang, Mule, Ya done forgot me already! I'm a CO tech! I got nitrogen out the wazoo. Where do ya think mebbe my hookah pumps came from? Air dryers?
Actually, it had crossed my mind as a drying agent. It can be easily regulated and displaces moisture well.
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Quote:
Marksman: "I had to remove 40+ years of bottom paint, which took most of the gell coat with it. Then West Systems epoxy. If I can do this, anyone can.
"
I feel you, Brother. I think the paint on this rig been there since '73
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:23   #56
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Originally Posted by Fishman_Tx View Post
Dang, Mule, Ya done forgot me already! I'm a CO tech! I got nitrogen out the wazoo. Where do ya think mebbe my hookah pumps came from? Air dryers?
Actually, it had crossed my mind as a drying agent. It can be easily regulated and displaces moisture well.
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I feel you, Brother. I think the paint on this rig been there since '73
I ain't fergot ya, I was just in a hurry, I was late to my meeting this AM with Bills friends, (AA) this am posting you. Mooch a regulator off an air pressure repairman, maybe even the drum and you are in business.

I am going to do this with my flybridge deck then peel it where soft, fill it with fiber honeycomb fiberglass sheet and reglass it. I have an estimate for 10k. I looked at it and said, damn, this gives me eye trouble. The guy said, "What do you mean". I answered, "I just can't see it".

I guess the first order of finish work business is to burn up my only low end power tool, a Black and Decker belt sander. Then I will go get a Makita or Bosck or Milwalkee.

Lets talk about the hooka..are you using the electric horaizally opposed compressors with the teflon sleeves, (oilless?) What kind of filter did you use? I am retired and gonna have a hard time stealing the stuff, but have faith, where there is a will....
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:42   #57
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The skeg and / or rudder may have foam inside.

I'd also check for seperation of the cutless bearing housing from the fiberglass of the skeg as this could be caused by viberation from a misaligned shaft.

On my Cabo Rico38 the fiberglass seperated from the top of the rudder post allowing water to work inside.

The rudder had to be removed and rebuilt. The interior was foam around a stainless steel plate that was welded to the rudder post and the whole thing was covered with about 1/2 inch of fiberglass.

Boat ownerships is such an adventure!
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:45   #58
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Nitrogen is nice but you switch to pressure instead of vacuum so you don't need the shop vac in that case. It is a bit overkill I think but if you have easy access to it, why not!

Okay, so we're talking about a void that isn't supposed to be there. It could be delamination but my feeling is that it's just a void from imperfect lay-up of the laminate. And yes, you should keep the applied volume of epoxy under control, but this is easy. But we need a new approach:

Drill a whole line of 5/16" holes along the void, through the void but not through the whole rudder.... just past the void is perfect. Space them 1" apart. Keep 3M masking tape nearby at all times with this method ;-)

You can use heat to your advantage with this method by utilizing a vacuum that is automatically created by air and laminate that is cooling down. You will need a IR thermometer, heat gun, slow hardener and a bag of medium syringes, just the size like West System sells.
We want epoxy to run and penetrate so absolutely no colloidal silica this time. I would use microfibers (milled fibers, whatever they call it) and use just a little to create a thin syrup consistency.

Start with the two bottom holes... the lower one is the current big one. Use the heat gun to heat up the area around the two lower holes. Use a heat setting that is hot on your hand but doesn't make you say ouch! (after some cursing you'll find the best way to test it is by moving your hand in from further away ;-) Heat the area thoroughly, you want the heat inside that void. Several things happen: it heats up, it ventilates, and it dries. Also, heat up the resin and hardener cans. We do it exactly the opposite way ;-)

Now, stop the heat gun and quickly mix and inject 1 syringe of the syrup into the higher of the two holes. Measure the temp midway between the 2 holes and into the holes and remember the readings. Check every 2 minutes or so. You might see it go up at first but you want to wait until your halfway down to outside temperature before you inject more.

What happens: it's all hot so the epoxy runs much more than normal (so you don't need penetrating epoxy formula). But as it cools down, the resin is vacuum-sucked into every little passage in the void (cooling air contrapts).

If epoxy come out the lower hole, get that masking tape and close the hole almost to the top but not the very top of the hole itself. Tape that when the epoxy reaches that level. When the upper hole doesn't take anymore, you switch to the next higher one. Don't forget the cans of resin and hardener every time you use the heat gun.

You can try to re-use a syringe a couple of times, until it falls apart or seizes up. Immediately after injecting, rinse it in a ziplock container with acetone. Never use that batch of acetone for something else after that ;-)

If your temperature readings aren't worrying you, you can try to step up to more than 1 syringe. Use one extra or the left over of the mixed batch of epoxy, whatever is less. I would not go over 2 full syringes a time.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:56   #59
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Lets talk about the hooka..are you using the electric horaizally opposed compressors with the teflon sleeves, (oilless?) What kind of filter did you use? I am retired and gonna have a hard time stealing the stuff, but have faith, where there is a will....
I have 2, liberated from the air pressure tech doing an upgrade. Both work great. They are high end Gast oilless rigs of the same type I use with my gold dredge. Both are dual-opposing cylinder. I took the one with the flakey motor and stripped it off then mounted the cylinder plate to a gas powered yard edger motor. Saved myself a ton o' $$! I can run several lines on each. As for filters, Harbor Freight.

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Quote:
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The skeg and / or rudder may have foam inside.
I'd also check for seperation of the cutless bearing housing from the fiberglass of the skeg as this could be caused by viberation from a misaligned shaft.
On that issue, we feel that was a large influence of the separation. The cutlass on this thing was completely shot and engine alignment was sh*t due to a shot motor mount. The PO ran the engine into the ground, she was overheating, shooting oil into the water jacket, etc. Damn kids! When we went to have her hauled and loaded, in reverse, she wouldn't hold in gear and the vibration would rattle your teeth (of course the "ball o' barnacles" on the prop didn't help either). We had her towed. But she feels MUCH better now, and at 2k rpm runs a bit above 170F.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:06   #60
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Nick, the nitrogen is for drying the skeg as it will displace the moisture faster and humidity be damned. Vacuuming the epoxy will still apply. Sorry you had to redo the procedure but ...NOT!.... I'm printing EVERY ONE and adding it to my 3ring binder. You never know..

What if there is not enough void area to inject? The runoff from these is VERY slow almost like wicking. Vacuum assist?
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