Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 27-04-2016, 10:48   #16
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind River View Post
The clear coat issue is one I have been wrestling with for a long while now. I am not willing to varnish and have been looking at Awlwood for a longer lasting solution.
I want something that is going to last as long as possible before re-coating. I have tossed this about with other Leaky Teaky owners and it seem about split down the middle for paint or clear.
From what I've heard, Awlwood is a good way to go. But I've yet to assemble a hands on knowledge base with it yet, myself.
That said, it can't hurt to call them (repeatedly), until you find a good curmudgeon in their shop, who'll simultaneously give you a good education on wooden spars, & on Awlwood.

It seems that many are adamant that the wood coating needs clear to be able to see rot starting and I agree, you certainly would not see it through 4 coats of Awlgrip until the paint started dimpling. I have stripped my bowsprit, which was painted (and I believe epoxy coated) and it was pristine other than a small amount of darker wood around a couple of the penetrations. The paint was still in pretty good shape. As far as I know the bowsprit is original (34 years) and I saw two slightly different shades of paint when stripping.

The masts on the other hand were severely neglected when I got the boat and I waited even longer before tackling this project. The paint was completely flaked off on large portions of the mast and the mizzen had got some cracks where water got in and rotted from the inside out. I was told by a local shipwright that this is almost always the case - rot from the inside out.

So how real is seeing rot through the clear coating before it has already done damage inside. Looking around the local marina's here in San Diego, I see more painted wood masts than clear coated ones. Are we all just lazy in our maintenance and willing to take the risk of unseen rot? I am of the thinking that if I keep a painted mast sealed and water out of, it should not rot. Is that flawed thinking?

You can see in my pictures how bad the mizzen mast paint was, and the cracks that developed. In the picture I had already started opening up these cracks to explore the rot inside. It was much worse than what can be seen in these pictures but once again, if there were no cracks allowed to develop to allow water inside would there still be rot? Other than the crack itself, the outside surface showed no signs of rot, all the soft wood was inside.

Am I correct in thinking that the rot seen under a clear coat is from water getting under the clear coat and rotting wood on the surface and therefore able to be seen? If so, I didn't have that with my painted masts.
AFAIK, the basic reasoning behind clear coatings for wood, is so that you can spot any rot, before it truly turns into problems.

And yes, water ingress is definitely a source of rot. But there's also water in the wood itself, back from when it was growing in the forest. So it too can be/is a source where rot starts. Even in lumber which has been kiln dried & had it's moisture content stabilized.

PS: Regarding the coating of wood, you' be likely to get a good bit of info & feedback, over on the Wooden Boat Forums.
__________________

__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 11:22   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,359
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

White paint will last far longer than clear.
__________________

__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 12:02   #18
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

I would use paint. If varnish, gloss and clear (easier to spot any rot under).

But clear varnish is said to give less UV protection to the wood.

Your pick.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 12:30   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Holland, Michigan
Boat: Catalina 30
Posts: 148
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

Preceding comments are all great info. Yep, when I had my CT-41 the rot started from the inside out. I think the only way to prevent that is to be sure that any end cap areas are really sealed well, soak the end pieces in epoxy... and yes the West System is great ... and then any hole or penetration of the mast must be sealed with epoxy. Ok, already, paint it. But realize that one day, somewhere, when you least expect it... you might have a problem.

Zeehag's spars are an exception. I would almost be criminal to paint something THAT beautiful.
__________________
carlheintz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 12:34   #20
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlheintz View Post
Preceding comments are all great info. Yep, when I had my CT-41 the rot started from the inside out. I think the only way to prevent that is to be sure that any end cap areas are really sealed well, soak the end pieces in epoxy... and yes the West System is great ... and then any hole or penetration of the mast must be sealed with epoxy. Ok, already, paint it. But realize that one day, somewhere, when you least expect it... you might have a problem.

Zeehag's spars are an exception. I would almost be criminal to paint something THAT beautiful.
i investigated availabilities if woods here in central coastal mexico, pacific side, and learned this is the most appropriate wood for the job. then i had the carpenter paint inside and outside with 105, and i will find some clear coat. 105 seals well the entire interior and exterior, and end caps so hopefullyu these will outlast the boats hull. (fiberglass)
as this wood is so gorgeous, i will do automotive clearcoat-- has been used before, with good durability--and remember, corvettes and real race cars use it, so it was built to last some goood abuse. wouldnt do the same thing with varnish.

oh yeah. brag time--that beauty put me out some reallll money. was a whole whopping 1200 pesos at 15 to one when i had it made. figger the math, but that aint 100 usd.
i figger by the time i am done with my major rebuild errr refit, my formosa will be a meximosa.....
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 14:26   #21
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Ettalong. NSW. Australia.
Boat: Cheoy Lee Clipper 33
Posts: 18
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

I have just re varnished my spruce masts and spars and wish this thread had been about prior to my starting the project. After removing all fittings and micro polishing, new spreaders in Oregon epoxy sealed and white epoxy on top,15 coats of brushed on varnish and lot of missed sail time I am done. Crane in next Tuesday.
Zeehag, fine looking timber, spruce is a little bland in comparison but light and strong.
__________________
OzClipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 15:18   #22
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

oz clipper--i found the weight/heft of the boom similar to pre-creation.. the thai cedar, which is what my spars were created from, was about the same heft once built into hollow box boom. complete with stringers on each board.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 15:38   #23
Registered User
 
Wind River's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: San Diego
Boat: Hudson Force 50 Center Cockpit
Posts: 221
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

As far as the automotive finishes go I believe Imron is an Acrylic Urethane.

In another post I had asked about anyone's experience with Awlwood. Minaret suggested his tried and true method was Awlspar Varnish with a topcoat of Awlbrite Clear Acrylic Urethane. Similar to Imron but quite expensive.
On the other hand at $300 a gallon plus $75/quart for primer and 8 coats of Awlwood my two masts would probably have $1900 in materials anyway. It might be cheaper to go the Varnish/Acrylic Urethane route if I decided to go clear.

If there was any clear coating that would last as long as paint I would be all over it, regardless of cost (within reason). It just looks like no clear coat is going to last more than 5 years before a re-coat is needed. The Awlwood rep claims (conservatively, he says), 5 years before a maintenance coat is needed. He said they have some of this material applied in Florida, that has been on 3 years and still looks great. Sure would like to see it for myself.
__________________
Wind River is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 17:17   #24
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,673
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm finding it hard to believe that properly dried timbers rot from the inside out. Can somebody post a link to information about that? The only intrusion that I have seen has been outside to in, and that first shows as dark discoloration. Then the rot spreads.

Zee, b----y h--l, woman, that timber's really beautiful! You kept writing that it was, but seeing the pic's a whole nother deal. Good on ya.

We have automotive LPU on our topsides, and it is holding its gloss quite well, so far, a little over 10 yrs, iirc.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 18:14   #25
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm finding it hard to believe that properly dried timbers rot from the inside out. Can somebody post a link to information about that? The only intrusion that I have seen has been outside to in, and that first shows as dark discoloration. Then the rot spreads.

Zee, b----y h--l, woman, that timber's really beautiful! You kept writing that it was, but seeing the pic's a whole nother deal. Good on ya.

We have automotive LPU on our topsides, and it is holding its gloss quite well, so far, a little over 10 yrs, iirc.

Ann

mine rotted not from inside out but from under punctured paint.
no mas de pintura-- as for the automotive cpu lasting 10 yrs--now THATs what i am talkin about. i can get that here.

why , thankyou, miss anne, i thought you may like this. and the price is absolutely right.


wind river, if they want to test in a truly testy environment i volunteer. floriduuhh has a boring climate and not tropical. i am in tropics. we have true paint tests here. sign me up.
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 18:49   #26
Registered User
 
Wind River's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: San Diego
Boat: Hudson Force 50 Center Cockpit
Posts: 221
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

Ann - I don't have any links, only what I have been told. What I believe happens is that water gets inside the hollow mast from some point of penetration and works its magic from there. It doesn't necessarily rot the outside significantly where it comes in, maybe because the air dries this point out. With a clear coat maybe this water will get trapped under the coating and show as a dark spot and maybe pealed paint if painted. I suppose this is what everyone says is the reason to clear coat, but a small dark spot on the outside may not be cause for much alarm while the water already inside is now doing major damage. Purely speculation on my part.

In my case, the severely neglected mizzen mast began to crack. there is very little rotted area around the crack. In the first picture of the cracks I am referring to, the larger cracks I have already started digging into and opening them up. the narrow one were what the others originally looked like.

The second picture is after I cut off the side of the masts at the glue line of the laminated section containing the cracks. The hollowed out area is rotted wood I dug out at the solid area of the mast around where the spreaders attach. The cracks in the first picture were about 10 feet above this section of the mast. There was a small 2" long crack at this area of the spreader so that is why I decided to cut it back this far. I'm glad I did or I never would have seen this significantly rotted area. I am assuming that the water got in at the cracks higher on the mast. Either way, the cracks were the sign that there were bigger problems although I originally thought they were just a result of the wood weathering because of the lack of a coating.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20160115_105906.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	343.6 KB
ID:	123248   Click image for larger version

Name:	20160404_164507.jpg
Views:	38
Size:	407.8 KB
ID:	123249  

__________________
Wind River is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 18:52   #27
Registered User
 
Wind River's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: San Diego
Boat: Hudson Force 50 Center Cockpit
Posts: 221
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
wind river, if they want to test in a truly testy environment i volunteer. floriduuhh has a boring climate and not tropical. i am in tropics. we have true paint tests here. sign me up.
I tried that "I will test it out for you bit".... they were not interested.
__________________
Wind River is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 19:48   #28
cat herder, extreme blacksheep
 
zeehag's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: furycame alley , tropics, mexico for now
Boat: 1976 FORMOSA yankee clipper 41
Posts: 17,770
Images: 56
Send a message via Yahoo to zeehag Send a message via Skype™ to zeehag
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

dayummmmm.
my mizzenmast cracked on glue line in cane patricia last year. i am presuming i need to replace.
donot put wind gen on masthead.
this was a pricy lesson.

life is an adventure meant to be LIVED!!!
zeehag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-04-2016, 20:52   #29
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,673
Re: Gloss or not to gloss, that is the question.

Wind River,

I do not know a whole lot about timber masts, just what I've picked up over the years. However, there are a couple of real experts on CF: minaret and MaineSail. if you pm either of them, they are both very free with truly vetted information. Take a look at the Nauticat 52 Refit thread by minaret.

You have done right to follow the rot. I don't know, though, how far extra you have to go. The spores spread.

Ann
__________________

__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to Measure the Gloss of the Textured Gelcoat Surface roggy Construction, Maintenance & Refit 11 30-07-2010 16:53
Annual Maintenance - Cetol & Gloss? Patsi Construction, Maintenance & Refit 6 12-06-2009 10:35
HIGH GLOSS, SEMI-GLOSS,SATIN OR RUBBED EFFECT INTERIOR? High Cotton Monohull Sailboats 12 04-11-2008 16:47
Epifanes High Gloss Varnish question By Invitation Construction, Maintenance & Refit 6 18-04-2008 13:12
A simple question, gloss or matt on the ceiling ? ribbony Construction, Maintenance & Refit 6 24-03-2008 02:54



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:29.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.