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Old 18-08-2016, 13:00   #16
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

My keel I taped on with 3x 300gm Db & epoxy. For the same reason as Minaret stated.
Also my keel bolts are withdrawn inside the boat. You can't drop the keel without first removing the bolts because of opposing angles.
Won't be anytime soon as they are 2205.
Easy to cut tape with a 1mm blade on mini grinder anyway.
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Old 18-08-2016, 13:48   #17
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
Usually fairing compound is used to smooth out fin keel/hull bumps; not fiberglassing. Fiberglassing will only add weight.
The original question specifically asked about the hull to keel joint not fairing the hull or keel proper. If you use only a fairing compound to fair the hull to keel joint and there is excessive movement between the stub and the ballast, there is a very high probability that a crack will show up again. The fiberglass spans the joint and therefore no flex crack will appear unless of course the keel bolts are really loose. In that case you have bigger problems. Actually fiberglass cloth is lighter than epoxy fairing compound so you are not adding weight by using glass tape. Although a couple of pounds either way would be insignificant. There is no good reason to pass on this boat for fairing the hull to keel joint with fiberglass tape and epoxy. Hiding structural issues is another story and I would suspect that there would be evidence elsewhere indicating that type of a problem.
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Old 18-08-2016, 14:41   #18
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

there are several bedded in place with epoxy then fared with mat then gel/looks like they were molded /the keel bolts are bedded in epoxy/x racing boats now cruisers
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Old 19-08-2016, 06:43   #19
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

I am not familiar with the boat in question however glassing in a hull-keel joint is not a professional approach to a separated keel. If a keel joint has been repaired properly you will never know the work was done.
Firstly, you must go inside and look at the fibreglass just aft of the keel. Sometimes if the boat was driven onto the beach or a rock the keel will push up at the stern and cause the fibreglass around the aft top of the keel to flex beyond the capacity of the hull to maintain integrity. The glass may look good but you need to be very careful with this inspection. Sometimes with age the seal between the hull and keel will age and leave a hairline crack. The professional repair for this is to release the keel-bolts and re-bed the joint. The immediate problem if the crack is larger than a hairline is that the keel-bolts may not be secure either through stretching or separating from the keel.
In any event you cannot complete a proper inspection (survey) unless you can grind off the glass and inspect the joint.
This is my first post but I've been under a lot of boats.
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Old 22-08-2016, 06:23   #20
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

What does the crowd think of this issue?



This crack is more prominent on one side (likely because the fairing was intact on the other and had not fallen out yet), and there is some rust around the forward keel bolts in the bilge. Additionally, the mast did compress the step support on the cabin top, and I will be correcting that this week, I think, with a rebuild up there. The sampson post seems intact and there is very little deflection in the cabin overhead, but it is there (perhaps only as much as in this keel photo, in fact).

I am attributing the erosion of the leading edge of the keel and to the trailing edge as well to the fact there were NO zincs on this boat's prop shaft, or anywhere else in the water, and lead is farther from steel than bronze (the bronze parts are not harmed, and there is a single pit eroded into the surface of the prop shaft).

Ideas? Yes, and I am still scraping/grinding away at this stubborn paint, and there is less there now than there is in the photo. How much of this has to come off anyway??

Do I need to pull the keel too, or can I just fix the mast base (which has likely caved due to water ingress from improperly bedded pulleys on top of it) and get use of this 1978 Hunter 27 as-is (I may drop another keel bolt pair into the keel just to be sure this is not a rusty bolt issue...).
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Old 22-08-2016, 06:56   #21
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

I would check the hull inside and the first bolt. Seen boats with cracks like this repaired and sailed on.

Not a concern in my book, unless further evidence the problem is wider than just the crack as shown in the picture.

BTW To inspect any crack, you must remove adjacent old material until the crack disappears and then some more. Layers of old paint, fairing and / caulk can/will hide many ugly facts.

b.
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Old 22-08-2016, 10:38   #22
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

That is a cast iron fin keel, not a lead keel. Secondly, the keel is actually separating from the hull. Its a structural issue and does require dropping the keel to see what is going on. I suspect the boat hit something real hard, either while sailing, or in storage. If you have bought this boat, my condolences.
BTW, its got nothing to do with zinc anodes. Time to call in a boatyard repair person to look at it. Personally looks bad to me.
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Old 22-08-2016, 13:25   #23
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

If there is any movement -drop it.
If any keel bolts look suspect-drop it.
If you cant get the bolts out to inspect without dropping it -drop it.
If you want to do a competent job & have piece of mind- drop it.
Not that big a deal to rebed/replace bolts.

If you want to do quick & dirty; dry out, replace any suspect bolts you can get out, rebed with hi density epoxy, torque existing, glass over with uni- tape with strands vertical.
Monitor.
Take to sea fully aware that you don't really know the state of your keel junction.
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Old 22-08-2016, 14:22   #24
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

I'm with Lateral, here. Also it appears from the upper right of the photo that this damage may be below the keel to hull joint.
It is not so difficult to drop the keel. Set your jack-stands, make a jig to hold the keel in place, level and true. Loosen the keel bolts enough to see the top of the keel when you lift the boat. Get the yard crane to lift the boat in situ, until you can examine the joint. Set jack-stands, 4 per side, up to the height of the hull and chain them together. Tell the crane to go away while you figure your next step. Effect the repair, lower the boat back onto the keel and sail with confidence. Move slow and be very safe, ensure all is stable between every move. Three days by yourself if you are handy and by one day with good help, don't break out the beer until the boat is bolted back together.
Why do we say "drop the keel" when we actually lift the boat?
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Old 22-08-2016, 15:02   #25
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

One suggestion that was made is a very bad suggestiono not epoxy or glass in the keel/hull joint. You want to be able to drop the keel later on if needed. Why? Because you may hit something that snaps a bolt, off centers the keel, or you may stress the hull so things start to flex all over. If you glass or epoxy in the keel, you transfer all that stress to the hull. Glass fatigues. Hulls do open up due to too much stress or even if you over tighten the keel bolts. Does happen.
A flexible sealant and fairing compound is all you need to keep the joint flexible and water tight and the hull/keel joint smooth.
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Old 22-08-2016, 15:45   #26
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

Quote:
Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
One suggestion that was made is a very bad suggestiono not epoxy or glass in the keel/hull joint. You want to be able to drop the keel later on if needed. Why? Because you may hit something that snaps a bolt, off centers the keel, or you may stress the hull so things start to flex all over. If you glass or epoxy in the keel, you transfer all that stress to the hull. Glass fatigues. Hulls do open up due to too much stress or even if you over tighten the keel bolts. Does happen.
A flexible sealant and fairing compound is all you need to keep the joint flexible and water tight and the hull/keel joint smooth.
Since when did a couple of layers of Uni tape constitute transferring load to the hull?
Actually, doesn't have to be uni.
Its there for extra waterproofing, essentially as its adhesion to cast iron is only mechanical anyway. And an indicator of movement, which you may not detect with flexible sealant.
The bolts should do the work not the glass. And if you really want to be pedantic you could use G-flex or DBH30.(Hi elongation epoxy hardener)
and diolen. Me, I'd use vanilla West & e glass. The instant there is any movement it will crack.

Ain't nothing black and white. There are more than one ways to skin a cat.
Besides your budget might decide for you.
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Old 22-08-2016, 16:14   #27
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

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Since when did a couple of layers of Uni tape constitute transferring load to the hull?
Actually, doesn't have to be uni.
Its there for extra waterproofing, essentially as its adhesion to cast iron is only mechanical anyway. And an indicator of movement, which you may not detect with flexible sealant.
The bolts should do the work not the glass. And if you really want to be pedantic you could use G-flex or DBH30.(Hi elongation epoxy hardener)
and diolen. Me, I'd use vanilla West & e glass. The instant there is any movement it will crack.

Ain't nothing black and white. There are more than one ways to skin a cat.
Besides your budget might decide for you.
The OP was originally talking about fiberglassing over the joint, not some tape. The discussion was also moving to epoxy bedding the joint. Both bad ideas.
And you really do not want any one part of the system to take the stress. Its the entire hull, bolts, and keel that should work in unison to distribute stress. Just like standing riggings should all be tuned to evenly distribute mast loads. Treat a boat like a violin where every component needs to be appropriately sized.
Finally, budget has little to do with it, and there are no cats involved. Do it right to begin with. Yes there is a right way with boats, if you know what you are about.
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Old 23-08-2016, 11:15   #28
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

Hmm... In my case, I am pretty certain it is a lead keel. It sure as hell carved away a bit easily with my grinder, faster than cast iron would have... Also, I have seen reference from Hunter that it was lead, but I know better to assume that is certain, given they were bought out after this model was made (it is a 1978, after all).
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Old 23-08-2016, 11:16   #29
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

BTW, the pic is taken darned close to the keel, I will make another with something to refer to for scale, just in case the image is confusing. The crack here looks far larger than it does in real life.
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Old 23-08-2016, 11:24   #30
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Re: Glassing in Hull/Keel Joint

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Hmm... In my case, I am pretty certain it is a lead keel. It sure as hell carved away a bit easily with my grinder, faster than cast iron would have... Also, I have seen reference from Hunter that it was lead, but I know better to assume that is certain, given they were bought out after this model was made (it is a 1978, after all).
Never seen a lead fin keel. Usually the metal is too soft to hold together unless encapsulated. Usually lead is used in the "bulb" portion with the support shaft made of cast.
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