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Old 18-10-2009, 16:34   #31
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I'm with Not Sure on this one... I like the interior of my boat to resemble a deep, dark hole...or maybe a coffin. Why on earth would we want to make our cabins brighter? It might lift our depressions. Remember though...your "Classic" Westsail is still molded from 'Glass and frozen snot!

PS to Bob Kingsland; I've never seen this side of you before! You are not only talented, you're funny too! I'd like to see a "Build off" between you and James S. Would beat the hell out of an episode of Iron Chef...

PSS: More people have shot themselves aboard Westsails than any other boat. OK, I just made that up.
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Old 18-10-2009, 16:36   #32
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Ouch!..........especially as not yet finished

FWIW although I am in the camp of preferring to keep things as they are.........but with an older boat one has to accept that requirements change over the years, and even that not all of the original design was perfect......IMO nothing wrong with change - the trick is to keep in sympathy with the boat, but not neccesarily replicate. and for that IMO no need to go over woody, even if the original was.

I am half way through a "bit" of a refurb (started as a quick tidy up ) of a 40 yo boat, and that includes going for a clean & tidy look in design and materials with an eye on future ease of maintanence (or none )..........my Nav station will be refinished 99% as designed.......the Galley on the other hand will depend on how brave I feel when I get to their (and what year ) and have to make the decisions I have been long mulling over......

No photos until finished though
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Old 18-10-2009, 16:40   #33
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Ouch!..........especially as not yet finished
No photos until finished though
I dont know about your boat, David, but your Goat is ugly!
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Old 18-10-2009, 18:04   #34
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His opinion is no less valid than yours, even if it is biased. What you think is pretty or ugly is truly your opinion, and the aesthetic tastes of one member is not always going to mesh with another member. It is, however, generally considered rude to tell someone they have an ugly boat.
Uh, no. There is good design and there is bad design, there is design that matches and there is design that clashes. These are not mere subjective issues, they are basic fundamentals of design, like it or not. For example, wear some plaid pants, a plaid shirt, and a plaid jacket...all of them different plaids, and see if you can't figure out what is wrong with your 'look'. And see if people tell you that you look nice. Maybe they will, but it certainly wouldn't be the truth, nor would their politeness be doing you any favors.

I never said he had an 'ugly boat'. The exact reverse is true in fact, the Westsail 32 is one of my favorite boats, which is why the removal of all of that beautiful teak and mahogany is all the more disturbing. There were only so many Westsail 32's made, and that is one whose original interior design has been altered forever. Hopefully there are numerous other examples that haven't been 'improved' in such a manner so that they can be used as a pattern should some later owner wish to restore her to her former glory.

Corian (and imitators) designs such as that nav/galley are like aluminum siding on a house, they may look 'nice' at first, but it isn't long before they look like the inside of a 20 year old mobile home. By contrast, that teak and mahogany that was torn out is timeless, and only gains character with age. (And that is beside the fact that teak is now selling for $25 a board ft.)
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Old 18-10-2009, 18:37   #35
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Uh, no. There is good design and there is bad design, there is design that matches and there is design that clashes.
Dear Mr. Troll, I have checked your profile, and can find no photo album with pics of your current and past renovation work. Please post some of your good designs for us to compare...teach us, oh great one!
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Old 18-10-2009, 18:58   #36
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Uh, no. There is good design and there is bad design, there is design that matches and there is design that clashes. These are not mere subjective issues, they are basic fundamentals of design, like it or not. For example, wear some plaid pants, a plaid shirt, and a plaid jacket...all of them different plaids, and see if you can't figure out what is wrong with your 'look'. And see if people tell you that you look nice. Maybe they will, but it certainly wouldn't be the truth, nor would their politeness be doing you any favors.

I never said he had an 'ugly boat'. The exact reverse is true in fact, the Westsail 32 is one of my favorite boats, which is why the removal of all of that beautiful teak and mahogany is all the more disturbing. There were only so many Westsail 32's made, and that is one whose original interior design has been altered forever. Hopefully there are numerous other examples that haven't been 'improved' in such a manner so that they can be used as a pattern should some later owner wish to restore her to her former glory.

Corian (and imitators) designs such as that nav/galley are like aluminum siding on a house, they may look 'nice' at first, but it isn't long before they look like the inside of a 20 year old mobile home. By contrast, that teak and mahogany that was torn out is timeless, and only gains character with age. (And that is beside the fact that teak is now selling for $25 a board ft.)
Altered forever? No. The stuff he put in can be taken out and replaced with the same kind of wood that was there originally. Just takes time and money. You occasionally make a good point, but your over the top statements and general rudeness get in the way.
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Old 18-10-2009, 19:03   #37
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Dear Mr. Troll, I have checked your profile, and can find no photo album with pics of your current and past renovation work. Please post some of your good designs for us to compare...teach us, oh great one!
What's the point? You've already decided I'm a 'troll', and anything that I post no matter how good it is you would still denigrate. Suffice it to say that I'm a master carpenter...and I've been one for years and years and years, and I've built more high-quality things than you've ever seen, regardless of whether or not you wish to believe it. The point of that is...over the years you pick up what looks right and what looks 'off' for a particular space, and that just looks 'off'. That's not to say that the execution isn't well done...it is. It's the overall design or 'look' that is bad. And somebody should have spoke up and told him so from the get-go.

The simple fact is, if you can't see how the design of that nav/galley are wrong for that particular boat, then I can't help you in that regard, pal. Maybe you've got a friend with design sense that could clue you in though.
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Old 18-10-2009, 19:06   #38
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Altered forever? No. The stuff he put in can be taken out and replaced with the same kind of wood that was there originally. Just takes time and money. You occasionally make a good point, but your over the top statements and general rudeness get in the way.
Well, that's not exactly true. You may be able to make a close facsimile of the original, but unless you've saved the original pieces to use as pattern, or taken copious notes, measurements and photos, you'll likely never be able to exactly replicate what was there....and more importantly, the quality of the materials that was used (which was what Westsail was noted for....and what eventually drove them out of business).

Let me reiterate in case I'm being misconstrued. The quality of work done is/was very good....bordering on excellent. It's the overall design or 'look' that is way, way off.
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Old 19-10-2009, 08:51   #39
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Hey all,

I appreciate all of the feedback, good, bad and indifferent. We have been trying very hard to balance the boat's original look while doing away with many of it's genuine issues; as pointed out, that's a tricky path!

Our boat was a kit, owner-completed product, so there were, and still are, many small things that were done poorly (and others, oddly, quite well.) One of the problems I had with our nav/galley is that most of the wood was not quality, or was rotting. The entire nav station's surface was of a very soft, porous cedar with cracks between slats that ate pencil tips like some evil, chart-hating monster, and the whole thing shifted and cracked any coating applied to the top. Every teak fiddle had a crack in it, and all of the mahogany-ply cabinetry and bulkheads have/had delamination of the veneer running rampant; the original owner must have used non-marine ply. The counters in the galley were a very ugly, stained formica, and the icebox lids (all 2.6 of them) laughed at the idea of containing energy, despite weighing 11lbs (yes!) each.

We considered replacing the counters with wood, but my mother, who has had Corian in our home kitchen for 10+ years, really wanted that surface for the boat. We also considered using mahogany boards, veneer, even marquetry, but in the end we decided we'd prefer the Corian. As the boat sits, it all appears pretty bland and quite plasticy. It'll be fun to, now that the counters are actually in, go through and finish, trimming the boat out with woods to alleviate some of that plasticiness. Also, we plan to build a small plate cabinet of mahogany above the galley, and some sort of matching cabinet above the hanging locker, so that will help add more wood-tones to the area.

We're trying to decide how to finish off the area above the nav table; we have two sheets of white formica (which we have been using to trim out the vertical panels in the galley), and may use it above that area, trimming with teak fiddles. The "lip" of the recession in the top of the hanging locker is going to get a teak hand-grip, too. Plus we have the two original mahogany vertical handrails that will go back in. So, I'm confident the boat will regain some of her wooden grace!

I'll post more photos for those with interest a we progress. I think we'll be happy once the project is finished.

Cheers!
Aaron
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Old 20-10-2009, 23:25   #40
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So your position is that your boat's nav station pictured here wasn't factory, but a 'kit':



And yet except for the countertop material difference (yours formerly being solid wood, probably mahogany) here's another Westsail 32's nav station that looks to be an almost exact duplicate of yours:



It appears that your nav station was indeed 'factory', and if it wasn't factory, then it was built to factory specs/plans by someone who really knew what they were doing, because your average Home Depot handyperson doesn't make radiused bullnose corners like those found in the lower right corner of your photo, and Home Depot (nor any other lumber yard) didn't carry them as 'stock' back in 1976 either. LOL! 1976 Westsail Cutter Rig sailboat for sale in Florida

Admit it friend, you tore out the real deal. It may have been a 33-year-old real deal (and likely mahogany no less), but real deal it was. (By the way, real mahogany is actually quite soft for a 'hardwood'.)
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Old 21-10-2009, 01:39   #41
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If you look closely at the lower right hand corner of the table top in your pictures you will see that the one that the one in the upper picture, that was removed, was very poorly done and not at all the same craftsmanship as the one in the lower picture.

To my eye, the counter top material looks much more like cedar than mahogany.
I have been able to make radias-ed bull noses corners and I am not a "Master Carpenter". see picture.

We have posted pictures of our work as amateurs. I would love to see some examples of professional work so that we can learn and do better.

If you could post some pictures of your work and maybe some tips I think we could all benefit.
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Old 21-10-2009, 06:21   #42
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I have been able to make radias-ed bull noses corners and I am not a "Master Carpenter". see picture.
James, that is beautiful work. I now bestow upon you the title of Master Carpenter! Congrats my friend! Now, in all seriousness, could you describe the tools and techniques you used to form those wonderful corners? I am getting ready to get back into interior work, and I WANT THOSE FOR MY OWN!!!
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Old 21-10-2009, 08:24   #43
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Christian,

Just make out a blank check and send it to James along with detailed specifications. I am sure he will make your boat as lovely as he has made his own.
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Old 21-10-2009, 10:05   #44
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All,

My boat was purchased as a hull/deck with bulkheads. Some of the interior was finished out by crews from the Westsail plant after hours in Wrightsville, in some places to original specs, in others to the owner's ideas, but much of it was done by the original owner and his wife. I've been aboard a dozen factory finished boats and the quality of work is much more consistent throughout those than within my boat.

The worse part throughout mine is the choice to use non-marine plywoods with veneer for all of the visual panels. Luckily, all of the non-veneer panels seem to be of marine ply, so the hanging locker, icebox, and other low cabinetry are solid. Anything above the hip seems to have been cheap wood though. The main bulkheads, those installed by Westsail corp, are solid, too.


James,

I, too, would be very interested in learning how you executed bullnosed fiddles. I haven't been able to figure out how to do them. Then again, these sort of things are fairly easy to find in lumber stores around here.

One of things we're trying to decide is how to finish the edge of our hanging locker to be a comfortable handgrip. Any ideas? I have quite a bit of jatoba in 5/4 stock and lots of random teak. We want it to be a comfortable hand grip.

Thanks for the thoughts!
Aaron
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Old 21-10-2009, 11:43   #45
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Thanks.
I used a 1/2 inch router set up under a table, shaft up...and you use it like a shaper.
Rough cut the corner piece shape...then tack on a template with the exact shape of the corner…the template needs to be as accurate as you can get it.

Put a bit in the router the profile you want the nose with a bearing off-set on the top of the shaft...that bearing will follow the edge of the template.

Take small bites.

Depending on the size and shape of your bit you may have to flip the piece over to get the other side…that’s how I did this piece…you can see in this picture that the top and bottom are symmetrical.

Change the bit for the shape you want on the inside.

Start out with the piece longer than you need ...then you cut back the ends to suit your final length and end angles.

Once your set up its pretty easy.
Get a sanding drum with flush bearing for the router as well…their great.

You can also use a shaper table if you can get your hands on one.

For the hand hold, How about a bit of wood 8 or 10cm high by 2-1/2 or 3cm wide, on edge, fit around the outside top with about half its height on the top becoming the hand hold..of course you would router the top and maybe a little detail on the bottom.
It would be kinda like a thick fiddle.
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