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Old 13-05-2014, 00:42   #31
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

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Originally Posted by Formosa Scott View Post
This guy has tons of information on refrigeration, it could help on designing your system. Kollmann Marine
Formosa Scott! Sounds familiar, welcome to the somewhat illustrated version of my rebuild. You viewing this thread does not exclude you from coming down in person to view progress, which for the past 3 weeks have been stalled due to flooding and my real job... More to come
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Old 13-05-2014, 09:12   #32
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

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Yes, I'm using pocket holes with a kreg jig, it works wonders.
Wonderful project. Very challenging. Your work exhibits some good background experience. Hope you won't regret using this inferior joining method.
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Old 17-05-2014, 12:45   #33
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

Why do you say inferior joining method?
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Old 17-05-2014, 14:16   #34
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

For every imaginable joint there is an optimum method: various mitered, tenoned, lapped, doweled, scarphed, splined, slip-feathered, biscuit-ed, T&G'd, etc... Immediately, on settling for Kreg joints everywhere, you've compromised the joint.

Except for maybe holding two pieces together while the glue dries, screws in wood end grain create a weak joint that encourages splitting and early failure. That is precisely why you won't find it on better furniture, let alone yacht grade cabinetry.

Edit to add that there may be special applications where a professional would resort to the use of pocket holes, perhaps to facilitate a field repair of a non-critical nature.
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Old 17-05-2014, 15:20   #35
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

Well fair enough response. I have been messing with the pocket screw jig. When making cabinet face frames you drill through the end grain and the screw threads do not go into end grain so not sure of the split problem. But I gather this us something you have witnessed. Also my guess is different types of woods would be more split prone. I may try using biscuits for my face frames but will be open to using pocket screws as clamps for a glued joint. Not sure about the "yacht quality". I own two yachts right now. My 78 islander freeports interior is quite nice , fine woodworking. the new yacht is a 78 schucker 436. The interior is shot but came from the factory built out like a mid grade rv. Both are Old Yachts I guess .
I asked the "why" because I wanted find out if the pocket joint was inferior or just thought of as inferior by some without facts.
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Old 17-05-2014, 15:44   #36
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

My facts come from a hands-on career of customizing yachts, with an emphasis on custom woodwork; prior to that, a career in engineering and design. I have my own shop and have used all the joints I have mentioned ++. In fact much of my work is assembled with no screws whatsoever, just carefully fitted joints of various types, epoxied together. BTW just a couple weeks ago I purchased a small, simple Kreg jig to try.

Here is an unfinished table top 1"x24"x48". No fasteners. the starfish is birds' eye maple and the rest is teak.

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Old 17-05-2014, 16:23   #37
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

That is beautiful work, real craftsmanship. I was looking into doing a traditional compass inlay on a table top using a purchased inlay. Have not tried anything like that, it looks hard but thought I might try a small inlay as a test to see if I can produce a quality result.
Just one last question in regards to the pocket joint used specifically the way they are being used in this galley nav station rebuild. Have you witnessed failures in this type of application? Don't get me wrong, I understand that there are really cool joints that will always be considered top of the line. I guess I am trying to figure out if a well done pocket screw joint is good enough for me.
Quality is important to me. So I am currently working with a dove tail jig to perfect my first time drawer making skills. .. It is not to difficult with the router and jig. My current plan is to use hard maple for the drawer boxes and incorporating hard maple drawer slides. This will be something I will show off and is easily seen. The pocket screw joints if good enough would never see the light do day. What materials and methods do you use for yacht drawer making if you please. Also a good glue to use.
I would like to also thank all the pros and amateurs who take the time to share there experience and knowledge and projects with the forum, thanks!! Chuck
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Old 17-05-2014, 19:29   #38
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

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...in regards to the pocket joint used specifically the way they are being used in this galley nav station rebuild. Have you witnessed failures in this type of application?...
What materials and methods do you use for yacht drawer making if you please.
Also a good glue to use....
I have not taken the time to study this construction except to admire the high overall appearance of the finished product.

Failures I've witnessed and repaired were not made specifically by a Kreg jig, but had taken that approach, which often cuts across lots of grain, leaving a large gouge, and thus weakening the structure.

Frankly it is not often good use of one's time to make dovetailed drawer boxes when they can be ordered, to size, so economically. Materials and methods usually closely match the original yacht's interior.

All glued, wood-to-wood joints use WEST epoxy and additives, usually colloidal silica and microfibers, care being taken to apply as many coats as required to thoroughly saturate mating surfaces with straight catalyzed epoxy before adding the thickener. Moderate clamping pressure can be applied before the epoxy begins to stiffen. Cleanup immediately with acetone, taking care to not contaminate surrounding surfaces.

Glued joints are virtually always accompanied by a mechanical means of attachment, a dowel or some such.
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Old 17-05-2014, 23:56   #39
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

Terra Nova, Gorgeous work, love how the veins on the starfish line-up with the field joints.
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Old 30-08-2014, 03:29   #40
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

Ok, I'm back working on the rebuild again, had to work a real job during summer months... so how the pocket hole debate go while I was gone? Seems some like them and some don't. just remember folks, I'm not building the actual boat, just wood cabinets inside, I could have just glued and clamped all this together and it would still stay together where it is located. this boat does not flex, so I'm not worried about using steel faster in wood with glued joints. if the galley breaks apart, I'll rebuild it again. it's simple, I'm on a timeline to get this thing going.... had to have a faster fastening system the mortise and tenner stuff...

I just wanted to share pictures and hopefully inspire myself and others along the way. not debate engineering of a fastner.

should I start a new thread or just continue on this one?
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Old 30-08-2014, 04:30   #41
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

Ray thanks for sharing your project with us.... It is great to see a practical craftsman take it from concept to execution at such a high level.

Wish I had your talents
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Old 30-08-2014, 13:28   #42
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

Please continue showing your work. Been honing my skills, building a router table with rounded corners just for practice before I begin the Schucker rebuild. Made some dove tail joints drawers as well. So your work is inspiring! I got all the info on the pocket screw joint I needed. Not the be all end all joint, but might have its place. I'll be using it. Chuck


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Old 30-08-2014, 18:52   #43
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

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...so how the pocket hole debate go while I was gone? Seems some like them and some don't...
It's not that, at all. It is more like pocket screws are a quick DIY shortcut to avoid proper joinery. In a whole lifetime of being around and working on boats, I had never seen this method used by a bonafide boat builder until just recently, where an entry-level boat builder had used it to join a cabinet door frame. Not too tough a job.

There are many superior ways of joining cabinet panels, including traditional yacht construction of screwing and gluing mating panels to a common cleat, typically 4/4 x 4/4 (~13/16") square hardwood, like Philippine mahogany.

As far as your particular cabinetry's integrity requirements being significantly less important because you perceive your hull to be extra stiff, I am only trying to encourage you to avoid this slippery slope. DIY shortcuts, which may be acceptable in your home or garage, may not be on a boat, where someone may be thrown hard into a cabinet, or need to hang onto one in order to prevent injury. Boat cabinets often contain potentially lethal missiles.

Just ask yourself...How much time and $ can I possibly save by settling for an inferior joint?
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Old 31-08-2014, 11:46   #44
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

Its hard for me to a entertain this conversation on the thread I started when you said "BTW just a couple weeks ago I purchased a small, simple Kreg jig to try." and that you have no facts to back up what your saying other than you do build with other joints. I'm not an idiot, I also have and engineering background. I did testing on the joint before selecting it for the boat, I tested it. screwing several pieces of different grain and trying to break them after the glue dries... It always breaks somewhere other than the joint.... We can agree to disagree, but calling it inferior when you your self have not tested it, or put it to practical use is, I'll just say not nice, and misleading. I know your heats in the right place by adding your 2 cents, but come loaded with facts. I've already done my homework when selecting the pocket hole method. I also consulted with 2 different yacht wood working professionals.

dude, it's strong, when done properly, add the glue, clamp your pieces, your done, you have a strong joint. as strong as you would ever need, I can say that all the yacht quality joints that were in the original galley were very nice. they slide right apart when taking the galley out. Seems 44 years was the working length for thier glue. from the outside you'll never know the difference. I'm not worried about galley cabinets. if it breaks apart I'll be the one calling it inferior since I would have tested it in a practical application on a boat.

let's move on.
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Old 31-08-2014, 15:41   #45
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Re: Galley / Ice box / Nav station rebuild

Pocket hole joints if glued can certainly be strong enough. I wouldn't raise an eyebrow if I saw them on a Catalina or other budget production boat.

But if I saw them when looking at a higher quality boat I would wonder what other shortcuts were taken.

I don't think the likes of Morris or Hinckley use them. They are most often found on household kitchen cabinets.
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