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Old 06-09-2014, 19:10   #1
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Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Just had an insurance survey. We've done a lot of work on the boat over the winter and installed a bunch of fuel hose to a new day tank. Surveyor sez....it's no good, gotta be A1-15/J1527 spec. Needs to be replaced.

Just a heads up for others.
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Old 06-09-2014, 19:29   #2
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Have a ink stamp made with that number , fix it urself
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Old 06-09-2014, 19:44   #3
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Just out of curiosity what did you put in there?
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Old 06-09-2014, 22:24   #4
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

USCG fuel hose is pretty de rigeur... Hard to believe you found fuel hose that wasn't type accepted.... What did you use? You do need to replace with complying hose... Shouldn't be difficult.


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Old 07-09-2014, 01:10   #5
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Just had an insurance survey. We've done a lot of work on the boat over the winter and installed a bunch of fuel hose to a new day tank. Surveyor sez....it's no good, gotta be A1-15/J1527 spec. Needs to be replaced.

Just a heads up for others.
A-1 is for fill hoses. A-2 is for distribution, return and vent lines. Most good manufactures put a red strip down the side, which makes it easy for the Inspectors to ID.
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:20   #6
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Do you have a gasoline engine? That spec is for gasoline hose. There is no CFR requirements for recreational boat diesel engines. There might be things your insurance company requires though. This site says B2 is good enough for diesel.

Fuel System Ratings Explained

I would try writing down the number for the hose you used and ask the insurance company if it meets their requirements, or if they would allow another expert to be consulted.

I had a survey where the surveyor insisted on one thing that had to be done, turned out it wasn't a legal requirement. Talking to the insurance company they asked when I would have another problem fixed and never mentioned the problem that the surveyor was so insistent on.
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:36   #7
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
Do you have a gasoline engine? That spec is for gasoline hose. There is no CFR requirements for recreational boat diesel engines. There might be things your insurance company requires though. This site says B2 is good enough for diesel.

Fuel System Ratings Explained

I would try writing down the number for the hose you used and ask the insurance company if it meets their requirements, or if they would allow another expert to be consulted.

I had a survey where the surveyor insisted on one thing that had to be done, turned out it wasn't a legal requirement. Talking to the insurance company they asked when I would have another problem fixed and never mentioned the problem that the surveyor was so insistent on.

Think again. When one googles USCG diesel fuel hose, one comes up with this:
33 CFR 183.540 - Hoses: Standards and markings. | LII / Legal Information Institute check all the links, it has to do with fire safety and it's resistance.

And: http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...yc.1002.01.pdf
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Old 07-09-2014, 02:10   #8
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Think again. When one googles USCG diesel fuel hose, one comes up with this:
33 CFR 183.540 - Hoses: Standards and markings. | LII / Legal Information Institute check all the links, it has to do with fire safety and it's resistance.

And: http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...yc.1002.01.pdf

subpart J is all the 183.5xx, which is spelled out in your pdf link page 1 as 183.501 through 183.590

33 CFR 183.501 - Applicability. | LII / Legal Information Institute
§ 183.501 Applicability.
(a) This subpart applies to all boats that have gasoline engines, except outboard engines, for electrical generation, mechanical power, or propulsion.


Page 2 of your pdf link shows pictures of applicability, all pictures of boats with gasoline engines.

Page 1 of your pdf link, EPA requirements (my bold):

1060.1
(a) The standards and other requirements in this part 1060 apply to the fuel lines, fuel
tanks, couplings and fittings, and fuel caps used or intended to be used in the following
categories of new engines and equipment that are fueled with a volatile liquid fuel (such as
gasoline, but not including diesel fuel), and to the equipment in which these components
are installed, starting with the model years shown in Table 1 to this section:


Excerpt from Boat U.S. Seaworthy Magazine
http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/AHoseIsAHose.asp

While there are no federal regulations for diesel-powered boats, A1 hose is also the best to use; the extra thickness guards against chafe and since it is less permeable, it is less likely to smell like diesel.
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Old 07-09-2014, 06:49   #9
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Well, no wonder I'm confused. Seems I'm not the only one.

Not exactly sure what I used as I was ignorant of the requirement, the boat having been surveyed several times before with no question about the hoses. I just went to an auto part place and got hose.

The mechanic at my marina says the requirement is recent, within the last few years.

Scott, as to your comment about "shouldn't be difficult" I can only say it's a lot easier for you to say that than for me to do that. I don't know why you find it hard to believe I got the wrong hose? I hear this kind of comment occasionally here. I think folks who are deeply involved in the marine BUSINESS forget that some of us exist in small and isolated places. This boat spends most of its life in Newfoundland. But even here on the Delaware River there are relatively few marine specific resources. Why WOULDN'T someone just walk into a auto store and ask for fuel line? Even at a larger commercial parts distribution center I was only ever asked if I wanted "normal" hose or "fuel injection" hose. Yesterday I went to the Parker/Racor distributor and asked for A-1 hose and the answer I got was ..."Never heard of it." This guy is a true and honest professional in the business a lifetime. As it turns out they had the hose, but as a heavy equipment kind of store were unfamiliar with the marine side of things.
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Old 07-09-2014, 07:17   #10
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Just to add another comment, I also got told I had to make the stove gimbal. The boat was built in'82, the stove never gimballed. Surveyor says, sure it's easy just move it forward so it clears. Of course he doesn't look on the forward side to see the compression post doesn't allow this.

So I spent yesterday cutting out and rebuilding the sink cabinet to make the stove gimbal. When did THAT become a requirement?
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Old 07-09-2014, 07:31   #11
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Most people are saying to meet ABYC specs. ABYC is like NFPA, an organization that makes recommendations, and they sometimes even get referenced in laws and so become the law. ABYC H-33 is referenced as an alternative standard in CFR 46 182.130, so it is a legal standard in federal law, but that section is the shipping section, so if you are an uninspected charter vessel at the lowest level you have to follow this, or one of the other standards listed.

I found this one.

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/H-33_Diesel_2005.pdf

33.6.1 Hose shall be USCG Type A ...

33.6.1.2 Hose shall be marked “USCG Type A1” or “USCG Type A2.” See H-33 Table I.
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Old 07-09-2014, 07:54   #12
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Just to add another comment, I also got told I had to make the stove gimbal. The boat was built in'82, the stove never gimballed. Surveyor says, sure it's easy just move it forward so it clears. Of course he doesn't look on the forward side to see the compression post doesn't allow this.

So I spent yesterday cutting out and rebuilding the sink cabinet to make the stove gimbal. When did THAT become a requirement?

OK... The hose I've heard many a time... A1, A2, etc... I'm also unfortunately very well read and proficient in deciphering the CFR's...

This gimballed shizzit being a "requirement" is a new one on me...
Imma research this one...
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Old 07-09-2014, 08:39   #13
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

The gimbal requirement is one I've also never heard of. I recently added gimbal locks to prevent ours from swinging. The constant motion can prematurely fail the hose. So far, we have never had the desire to operate the stove under way so fixed works for us. I suppose a rolling anchorage might be cause to let it swing. Our surveyor gigged us on a lot of nonsense that it turns out he made up. The guy came from power boating and had little understanding of sail. He wanted us to put vents in the lazerette hatch to vent the moisture out. Lazerette is under water in big seas. Also, he insisted we bolt and torque the Edson wheel retainer nut. We have the wheel stored on an Edson rail mount to increase room in the cockpit. I found the insurance inside tech contact and discussed it with him. He told me to write them a letter for the record explaining why we would not be doing certain things. Surveyor's recommendations are not law.

As noted by the others, the CG rules are very specific and then at the end of the long list of requirements it excuses diesel from all of the above. It is still best to use marine rated stuff for fuel hose & wires.
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:23   #14
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

Quote:
Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
Most people are saying to meet ABYC specs. ABYC is like NFPA, an organization that makes recommendations, and they sometimes even get referenced in laws and so become the law. ABYC H-33 is referenced as an alternative standard in CFR 46 182.130, so it is a legal standard in federal law, but that section is the shipping section, so if you are an uninspected charter vessel at the lowest level you have to follow this, or one of the other standards listed.

I found this one.

http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/H-33_Diesel_2005.pdf

33.6.1 Hose shall be USCG Type A ...

33.6.1.2 Hose shall be marked “USCG Type A1” or “USCG Type A2.” See H-33 Table I.
As I stated before, ITS THE FIRE REQUIREMENTS, not necessarily the type of fuel running thru it. The type A & B hose are rated for gasoline, diesel & biodiesel in most cases.

A sample: Trident Barrier Lined A1-15 Fuel Hose - 1/2 Inch
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:52   #15
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Re: Fuel hose - requirement for insurance

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Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
...Why WOULDN'T someone just walk into a auto store and ask for fuel line?...
Common sense?
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