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Old 08-01-2019, 06:11   #31
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

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Originally Posted by billgewater View Post
Selected quote from Ann
"They're giving you the straight skinny. It is really amazing to me, I found out about all this back in the '80's. You might think manufacturers would routinely use lanolin or Duralac or aluminum anti-seize (all available before then, and all work) in the putting together of the rigs, but "they" don't.

Back in '83, we met a guy who field stripped a brand new outboard, and put it back together with anti-seize. Never had a problem working on it. Smart fellow."

Maybe it's about time the boating community got its act together and started applying pressure to manufacturers. Or at least be prepared to ask questions such as "Please detail what has been done to prevent different alloy corrosion or seizing."
The then Alspar agency in Perth Western Australia who made my rigging in the mid 1970's didn't use any preventative anywhere (except for a bit of silicon). It has been a nightmare, particularly where SS machine screws went into alloy castings (through the boom and then into the cast alloy boom end fittings). The electrical heating method is very difficult to employ here.
Unprofessional, lazy, cheapskates. Take your pick.
My choice of preventative is Duralac. not cheap, but it seems to work.
Im sure it doesnt make you feel any better but so you dont feel you have a monopoly on this flavor of engineering 'not giving a rats' approach, many aircraft mnufacturers are no better.

A favorite technique is using a pnuematic rivet gun with a screwdriver bit and a long handle to turn the bit.

Duralac has pretty much not been used in Aviation for a while as it sets hard, also causing removal issues. Then Mastinox was popular but was found to be cancer causing so again mostly dropped.
Now most guys have various personal favourites like Thixogrease, Nickle antiseize etc.
I tend to think all of them are fine but apart from any of them the biggest factor is moving them regularly. Say yearly, a quick re application of your favourite anti seize.
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Old 09-01-2019, 03:21   #32
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Strange that most posts dont realise that SS screws stuck in aluminium is just a matter of chemistry. I have used 30% hydrochloric acid (available everywhere as a means to remove e.g excess concrete in work on ceramic tiles etc) for decades for restoring eg oxidized ends of copper wiring. You get a completely clean red copper end, no need to remove the whole cable. As applied to aluminium, the hydrochloric acid (like vinegar but that is a much weaker acid) will remove the oxides. Just drop the acid so that it gets into the thread and you are done in seconds. However, be careful. Even though hydrochloric acid is much less harmful than battery (sulphuric) acid, it is still strongly corrosive. After treatment, just wash with water. Done.
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Old 09-01-2019, 04:49   #33
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Get a decent size center punch. Bang each screw hard. See if it loosens.. but my guess is no way, especially with those crazy slot head screws.
I would:
- center punch each one.
-Drill out the head only to get the head to fall off..
-Remove the winch.
-Cut each remaining stud flush with a hack saw. (or try some good vice grips!)
-Put the new winch on on rotated from those old holes.
-You can try to drill out the bolts but in aluminum most often it drifts into the soft aluminum and makes a mess.

Yup, I've gone this route more than once. Not really a big deal.
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Old 09-01-2019, 07:49   #34
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

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Just drop the acid so that it gets into the thread and you are done in seconds.
Acid sounds like a worthy idea, but the logistics look difficult to me, though I'm always keen to learn new methods - especially if they're quick.

Looking at the photo showing the 5 slotted head screws, do you have a practical suggestion for "dropping the acid into the threads" - ie. how do we apply the acid to reach the threads behind the screw heads, within seconds ?
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Old 09-01-2019, 08:48   #35
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

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Originally Posted by Marqus View Post
Acid sounds like a worthy idea, but the logistics look difficult to me, though I'm always keen to learn new methods - especially if they're quick.

Looking at the photo showing the 5 slotted head screws, do you have a practical suggestion for "dropping the acid into the threads" - ie. how do we apply the acid to reach the threads behind the screw heads, within seconds ?
That's really the issue with any dissolving or penetration liquids in a situation where the plate and screw head block direct access to the threads.

Would say this approach below makes the best sense in this situation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako
Get a decent size center punch. Bang each screw hard. See if it loosens.. but my guess is no way, especially with those crazy slot head screws.
I would:
- center punch each one.
-Drill out the head only to get the head to fall off..
-Remove the winch.
-Cut each remaining stud flush with a hack saw. (or try some good vice grips!)
-Put the new winch on on rotated from those old holes.
-You can try to drill out the bolts but in aluminum most often it drifts into the soft aluminum and makes a mess.



Once you remove the heads and winch, you could then try the liquids to remove the studs. If you aren't going to reuse the holes for a new winch then flush cutting may be good to keep the holes filled vs. creating Swiss cheese out of the mast.

The only other approach would be to possibly fix the winches (if broken) and leave them as in spot. As you probably know, the pawls and springs from Lewmar are the replacements for Barlow/Barient winches.


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Old 14-01-2019, 07:39   #36
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Try an impact driver. I had the same problem of frozen screws and the impact driver worked great. I've used them in similar situations many times and have yet to have them fail at loosening the screws. At $35 for a simple impact driver with multiple bits, it's worth a try and a useful tool to have aboard in any event.
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Old 14-01-2019, 08:58   #37
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

I had a few winches seized onto my mast on my last boat. I used krill oil from Kano labs and an impactor.
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Old 14-01-2019, 09:04   #38
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Why not just leave the base plate there and adapt it to your new winch??
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Old 14-01-2019, 10:12   #39
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

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We are looking to replace a Barient 25 main halyard winch on our mast. The winch base was secured with five simple SS screws. As you may already correctly assume, the screws are frozen into the mast mounting bracket. Photos attached. I am confident that I am not the first with this issue. At this time, I have tried heating with a propane torch along with an impact driver resulting in nothing more than ruining the driver tip. Someone must have a solution. I am looking for advice.Attachment 183327Attachment 183328
Try drilling it out with carbide bits...small to large and finish with a tap..
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Old 14-01-2019, 11:22   #40
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marqus View Post
Acid sounds like a worthy idea, but the logistics look difficult to me, though I'm always keen to learn new methods - especially if they're quick.

Looking at the photo showing the 5 slotted head screws, do you have a practical suggestion for "dropping the acid into the threads" - ie. how do we apply the acid to reach the threads behind the screw heads, within seconds ?
The hardest fastener to bust loose is one that passes through an aluminum casting. The area exposed to corrosion is so great that it may be impossible to break the fastener loose whether threaded into it or just passing through. In the winch in this post would try and get the pad off the mast as there is less aluminum to to lock the fasteners in place so you'd have more luck getting them out. Once you get base off the mast you can lay it flat so any liquid, acid/penetrating oil, can better take advantage of gravity to loosen up the corrosion.
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Old 14-01-2019, 11:23   #41
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

If all else fails the 'standard' way to drll out (hard) SS screws set in (soft) aluminium masts is to drill a pilot hole through the centre line of the fastening as accurately as you can and then follow it up with the appropriate size drill to remove the outer section. If you do it cleanly enough the next size up screw should then hold the new unit. I'v never seen or heard of a helicoil that would be efffective in a thin aluminum sheet (mast) but that may just be my ignorance. (I'm a modest man with much to be modest about)
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Old 14-01-2019, 12:53   #42
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Personally I would remove the whole mounting bracket/winch base from the mast, hell of a lot easier to work on and you can drop the whole lot in a bucket of your favourite penetration mix for a good soaking if you want.

Wouldn't hurt to clean up the mounting bracket to mast area either.

My 2c (+interest)
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Old 14-01-2019, 12:59   #43
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

I went through this same exercise two years ago. Vinegar works as well as Kroil if you can get it into the threads. (my mast was on a rack) You also need a torch and an impact gun.
The other option, if you can get a wrench on the nuts is to tighten them and hope the bolt breaks. No matter what, do not re-use the bolts!
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Old 14-01-2019, 13:00   #44
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Use Allen head machine screws next time so when you strip it out you can use an easy out. The hole is already there but might need deepening a little.
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Old 14-01-2019, 13:32   #45
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

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Originally Posted by GBR134 View Post
If all else fails the 'standard' way to drll out (hard) SS screws set in (soft) aluminium masts is to drill a pilot hole through the centre line of the fastening as accurately as you can and then follow it up with the appropriate size drill to remove the outer section. If you do it cleanly enough the next size up screw should then hold the new unit. I'v never seen or heard of a helicoil that would be efffective in a thin aluminum sheet (mast) but that may just be my ignorance. (I'm a modest man with much to be modest about)
I use a thin cutting wheel in the dremel and cut a groove in the center of the object where I want to drill. I then cut another groove at 90. The intersect of both grooves provides for an excellent starting point for drilling and remaining in the same place.
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