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Old 07-01-2019, 12:45   #16
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

JPA Cate is correct. Here is the article and results of tests. Keep in mind that acetone flashes off quickly and you will have to stay at it with new small batches.

Penetrating Oils

Machinist's Workshop Mag recently published some information on various penetrating oils that was very interesting. Some of you might appreciate this. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts. They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.



*Penetrating oils .......... Average torque load to loosen*

No Oil used ................... 516 pounds
WD-40 .......................... 238 pounds
PB Blaster ..................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix...........53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test. Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price. Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix. *ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid
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Old 07-01-2019, 12:47   #17
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

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Originally Posted by svJasmine View Post
Use pb blaster and an impact screwdriver. The kind you beat on with a hammer. It will work.
Yes.... that's the way to do it.... with gentle touch..... did it for a frozen long SS screw in my cast alu pedestal to remove the compass base plate!
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Old 07-01-2019, 12:55   #18
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

My method is straight forward. Apply blaster,strip the screw heads with the cordless impact driver. Then drill heads off the screws to remove the winch base. I usually drill with the same size bit as the screw. Once the base is off you can put vice grips on the remaining studs. Sometimes I’ll use a smaller size bit and drill down though the center of the screw. It’s not difficult and it will allow you to crush the screw to get it out. Then run a tap in the hole. If you bugger up the hole no worry’s because you can drill and tap a bigger hole or go with a helicoil or threadsert. Offsetting the base 1/2 inch is an easy fix also. Stainless and aluminum are a really bad combination
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Old 07-01-2019, 12:59   #19
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Well, it will be interesting to see how it comes out. ...pun intended! My experience is that often the aluminum (now oxide) comes with the threads, it' just white and hard as nails and cannot be "loosened", the aluminum is gone and the hard oxide comes out entirely. Much different than rust on steel in a lab test. Unless some form of lube was put in with the screws to start with like Tuf Gel or Lanolin.
I have taken many rusty bolts out that the threads came out clean. But SS in aluminum in salt is much different.
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Old 07-01-2019, 13:08   #20
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

I have removed a number of stubborn fasteners with a 'trick' a local race car engine mechanic shared.
Heat the parts in question and once hot melt paraffin wax (candle will do) into the joint you are trying to defeat. You MUST LEAVE IT FOR 15 MINUTES to cool! After this he simply turned out the bolts that were stuck in a turbo as though there was never any problem. I don’t know about heating the mast, I’ll leave that discussion for someone better qualified to advise you.

Hope this helps,
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Old 07-01-2019, 15:05   #21
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

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Originally Posted by Marqus View Post
Heard of this but haven't done it myself, so just wondering, Peter, from your experience, how long are we talking here keeping the short going - should you limit it to something like 5 seconds or can you go 20 seconds or more ?

Also, should one use an old battery, or will your normal start battery not suffer any adverse effects from a 20 second dead short ?
I leave the bolt against the fastener until it turns noticeably red. Never timed it but probably at least 10 seconds. If there is residue penetrating oil on the fastener, both ends will smoke after just a second or two of the completion of the short circuit. Kind of play it by ear in length of time short is held on. The jumper cables will get hot after a couple of cycles so you might use that as a gauge on how long to use the trick. I've used the house batteries and the start battery in the many times I've done it without any problems. I'm sure if you kept the short circuit going for too long there could be consequences but I've never had a problem. If at first you don't succeed, wait a while and try again. The self steering vane bolts didn't yield till after three days of a couple times a day treatment.

Just used the trick on the aluminum tiller head casting on the Sabre. The aluminum tiller head casting was through bolted in place on the SS rudder shaft with two 5/16" bolts that probably hadn't been touched since the boat was built 43 years ago. Tried hitting it with PB Blaster several times a day off and on for months but the bolts wouldn't budge. Hit it with the jumper cables three or four times and quenched with PB blaster and the bolts came out, not easily but they turned.

The beauty of using the jumper cables is you control the area of heat application. The blue wrench or Mapp gas will set fire to anything combustible near to the fasteners and scorch the finish even if you are very careful. Have had virtually zero luck using Mapp gas and messed up the looks of the area around the fasteners when I used it. It just doesn't get stuff hot enough. Acetylene will get things hot right now but you have to be careful as it will melt aluminum with virtually no warning.
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Old 07-01-2019, 15:31   #22
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Stripped my old mast with multiple winches and fittings. Most come out using PB Blaster, impact wrench etc but there were a few that didn't. Finally got them out using a large Snap-on phillips with fitting for long wrench. One person applied downward pressure and one turned wrench. Got them all out. Have used this technique before successfully. Seems almost too simple.
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Old 07-01-2019, 19:07   #23
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
I leave the bolt against the fastener until it turns noticeably red. Never timed it but probably at least 10 seconds. ... <snip> ....
Acetylene will get things hot right now but you have to be careful as it will melt aluminum with virtually no warning.
Thanks for explaining, Peter, good info.
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Old 07-01-2019, 21:02   #24
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

I find Kroil significantly better with aluminum than PB Blaster. It's the goto product for aluminum airplanes. I use the liquid not the spray. Alway let it sit overnight. They say on the Kroil can "The oil that creeps". In my experience, it creeps slowly.

I would do three days of daily Kroil treatment and then try a big bit with breaker bar. Go very slowly. Once the fastener moves at all, you're home. The impact wrenches rotate too fast and jump out.

While I am quick to go to heat on engines. I only use high heat as a last resort on an aluminum mast. The risk of ruining the mast is just too great to not give the less risky solutions every possible chance.

Safer than heat is cold. Either CRC Freeze Off or better, hold a piece of dry ice against the bolt head. Alternating cold with heat from a simple propane torch can work great at cracking the corrosion without risking the mast. You won't see any change but apply more Kroil and let it soak overnight.
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Old 07-01-2019, 23:27   #25
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Selected quote from Ann
"They're giving you the straight skinny. It is really amazing to me, I found out about all this back in the '80's. You might think manufacturers would routinely use lanolin or Duralac or aluminum anti-seize (all available before then, and all work) in the putting together of the rigs, but "they" don't.

Back in '83, we met a guy who field stripped a brand new outboard, and put it back together with anti-seize. Never had a problem working on it. Smart fellow."

Maybe it's about time the boating community got its act together and started applying pressure to manufacturers. Or at least be prepared to ask questions such as "Please detail what has been done to prevent different alloy corrosion or seizing."
The then Alspar agency in Perth Western Australia who made my rigging in the mid 1970's didn't use any preventative anywhere (except for a bit of silicon). It has been a nightmare, particularly where SS machine screws went into alloy castings (through the boom and then into the cast alloy boom end fittings). The electrical heating method is very difficult to employ here.
Unprofessional, lazy, cheapskates. Take your pick.
My choice of preventative is Duralac. not cheap, but it seems to work.
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Old 08-01-2019, 00:27   #26
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

I have a small power tool that has an impact head. It takes standard drive tools and tips. I've never had it fail to remove screws, even when set in epoxy. You can probably rent one.
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Old 08-01-2019, 00:58   #27
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Soak in vinegar. Takes a bit of time but should eventually penetrate.
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:42   #28
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

The chemical bond between the stainless and aluminum is difficult to break. Acid etching (vinegar) is a good first step. Then apply penetrating oil. I am not impressed with PB blaster. Liquid Wrench is a lot better. Never tried the ATF/Acetone mixture but sounds pretty good to me, and I will try that next time I am in that situation.


Usually if a day of soaking, pounding, heating, etc won't get it, then I just drill and grind, and make new holes elsewhere. I apply LocTite Blue and torque fasteners only moderately tight.
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Old 08-01-2019, 05:29   #29
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Quote:
Originally Posted by saillr View Post



The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test. Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price. Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix. *ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid

I know a couple of mechanics that swear by this concoction and affectionately refer to it as “weasel piss” lol
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Old 08-01-2019, 05:42   #30
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Re: Frozen SS Screws Securing Winch to Mast

Quote:
Originally Posted by saillr View Post
JPA Cate is correct. Here is the article and results of tests. Keep in mind that acetone flashes off quickly and you will have to stay at it with new small batches.

Penetrating Oils

Machinist's Workshop Mag recently published some information on various penetrating oils that was very interesting. Some of you might appreciate this. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts. They are below, as forwarded by an ex-student and professional machinist. They arranged a subjective test of all the popular penetrates with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.



*Penetrating oils .......... Average torque load to loosen*

No Oil used ................... 516 pounds
WD-40 .......................... 238 pounds
PB Blaster ..................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF*-Acetone mix...........53 pounds

The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in this one particular test. Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results. Note also that "Liquid Wrench" is almost as good as "Kroil" for about 20% of the price. Steve from Godwin-Singer says that ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix. *ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid

This April /May 2007 article is the most misquoted article out there on the net. While the info in the chart is the same as the original article the test subject were punch/dowel pins, not bolts or nuts. Here's the original article.

The other correction to the original article was the ATF:acetone mixture was really power steering fluid (PSF):acetone. Jim says the ATF mixture works so one could use that also. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...OFyowaHBKVs46t



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