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Old 10-01-2014, 16:21   #76
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

Quote:
Bubbles from electrolysis scouring off the bottom paint ?
From my installed dictionary:
Quote:
electrolysis |ilekˈträləsis, ˌēlek-|
noun
1 Chemistry chemical decomposition produced by passing an electric current through a liquid or solution containing ions.
This discussion is NOT about the potential for "electrolysis" as electrolysis in water breaks the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen.

Possibly stray current (most probable). NOT electrolysis.
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Old 10-01-2014, 16:36   #77
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Originally Posted by SvenG View Post
We're watching this thread with a lot of interest because we too have a keel-cooled fridge/freezer. Bonded, no zinc on the cooler but one bonded one over the side and several others, no shore power connection.

I think ours has been running for about 15 months by now and with an all-solar budget the efficiency has been wonderful.

The only technical issues we've had were due to the web site, it confused Amps with Amp-hours or something like that. We pointed it out but I don't think they fixed it. Not too surprising if the marketing or web folks don't understand the technical terms but still aggravating

This was actually a point that made me really sit up and scratch my head. I absolutely detest companies that refuse to do e-mail tech support. Few things are more frustrating than having to speak on the phone and explain the same thing over and over and over again as you get passed around the support team. Forget about having to repeatedly spell out serial numbers and model numbers etc.. Phone support, beyond simple questions, is designed to wear you down and give up.

E-mail support is to die for when dealing with any technical issue that require accuracy.

-Sven
+1 for email tech support.
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Old 10-01-2014, 17:10   #78
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

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Originally Posted by CharlieJ View Post
From my installed dictionary:


This discussion is NOT about the potential for "electrolysis" as electrolysis in water breaks the water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen.

Possibly stray current (most probable). NOT electrolysis.
As far as I understand, current through water (stray or intended) causes electrolysis. My theory in the previous post is that bubbles of hydrogen or oxygen produced by electrolysis could have caused the marking above the keel cooler.

Sorry I spelled it wrong.

Cheers,
JM.
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Old 22-01-2014, 06:04   #79
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

Nearly three weeks since new equipment supplied by Veco NA re-installed on yacht, and working perfectly. Here are latest emails from distributor's rep. and my response (cut and pasted).
"Mr Blackwell
I am pleased to hear that the replacement system we supplied is working satisfactorily.
There has been much discussion between Veco S.p.A., Veco-NA, and the fabricator of the Keel Cooler, and the general consensus is that at this point in time there is no evidence to suggest that there has been any type of mechanical failure of the Keel Cooler, but that it was almost certainly the result of a stray current of some magnitude being impressed on the Keel Cooler from an outside source. Veco NA is currently waiting for the original equipment to arrive here for further analysis, as unfortunately it was not shipped to us before Peterson Marine closed for their holiday break.
I note that you have had several parties make tests on your electrical systems, but I have seen no mention of whether or not you have any form of galvanic isolator or "Zinc Saver" installed on your incoming shore power ground wire. When I mentioned this fact during our phone conversation you stated that you were not aware of these devices or if one is installed on your vessel. These items are required by ABYC to be installed on all new boats, and are designed to prevent harmful DC stray currents, such as that which most probably destroyed your Keel Cooler, from entering a vessel via the AC shore power ground. A "Zinc Saver" is designed to block these harmful DC currents while still providing the required safety protection to occupants from potentially lethal AC wiring faults on board. As a condition of Veco NA having provided a complete replacement Keel Cooler system to you free of charge, we require that, if a galvanic isolator device is not already installed, that one be installed at the earliest possible opportunity to lessen the possibility of repeated failures of the Keel Cooler and/or other thru-hull fittings, zincs, propeller, etc.
It must be understood that any survey of the electrical system on a vessel is only relevant to the time that was performed. It can in no way be taken as a definitive bill of clean health, as there are so many possible outside anomalies that may not have been present at the time of the survey, and this is especially true if the vessel is connected to shore power and no galvanic isolator installed."

My response
"Mr Warren

Two weeks after new equipment installed and system continues working per specs. I can confirm that the boat is equipped with a galvanic isolator and a combiner, which prevent stray current from leaving the system.
Accordingly, I believe this was not the problem. Further, I have had input from two parties who suggest the following may have been the cause;

1. "where this would come from is via the compressor and the copper compressor vapor discharge line to the keel cooler (condenser)."

This seems related to the following suggestion:

2. "Electrolysis cannot occur on an isolated piece of metal in salt water. It is all at the same voltage but if it is isolated no current can flow so there is no electrolysis.
When it is connected to another piece of metal, ESPECIALLY if the other piece is a different metal, you just created a shorted battery and electrolysis will start.
By following the wrong advise and bonding everything in the boat you are creating batteries where it is unnecessary and making electrolysis problems worse."
I don't know myself. What I do know is that the other thru hull equipment on the boat, which include two A/C units, watermaker, genset and the Yanmar auxiliary have never experienced a problem.
Ditto for the previously installed AB refrigeration system , SSB and all the other electronics. The boat and equipment have performed beautifully

With respect to your "general consensus", I am not surprised to hear that the manufacturer, supplier and NA distributor claim that " there is no evidence to suggest that there has been any type of mechanical failure of the Keel Cooler "
while acknowledging that the failed equipment has never been inspected because it hasn't been received. What else would they say publicly.
To me, as a professional pilot, this is akin to the NTSB releasing a statement that the aircraft lying in pieces on the ground could not have been the cause of the crash, without inspecting the wreckage. But that's just me.

I'm still happy that the equipment continues to function properly, despite my spouse asking me if it's still working every time I come home from the boat.



T Blackwell
Tampa
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Old 22-01-2014, 06:10   #80
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

I see you are still relying on the opinion of someone who does not know what electrolysis is.
See post #2
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Old 22-01-2014, 06:38   #81
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

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Originally Posted by konakoma View Post
I'm not relying on anyone for anything. Clearly, no one else on this forum is as smart as you but in keeping with American tradition of "Freedom of Speech", anyone can chime in with their own perspective or opinion, right or wrong.
See post #2
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Old 22-01-2014, 07:02   #82
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

konakoma-
Regarding posts 80, 81 and 82; see #76.

I will add that, in my experience, the type of accelerated deterioration that was shown in the photos that you supplied on this forum was most probably caused by stray current. Regarding the comments that you posted in #79 above from the manufacture of the failed equipment:
  • A galvanic isolator is not required by the ABYC standards.
  • For the failure that you showed in your photographs to occur in the time period that you reported, a significant voltage potential > 1.2VDC would most probably be required.
  • Galvanic isolators will block galvanic currents to or from a vessel up to about 1.2VDC.
  • The source for significant stray current damage is usually the vessel that suffered the damage.
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Old 22-01-2014, 07:04   #83
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

I have to agree with boatpoker, any technician that would use the term "electrolysis" does not have a clear understanding of the subject and I would not rely on their advice. Boatpoker was pointing this out as a way to help you, not as a way to insult you. If you are getting bad information from a technician it could lead to further problems with your system. You came on this forum seeking assistance or just to blow off some steam. If you do not get the information that suits you it does no good to get upset with those that seek to help, and if you feel the moderators are not doing a good job go play someplace else, as you say it is a free country. When one insults those trying to help, one only shows themselves to be not worthy of that help.
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Old 22-01-2014, 07:06   #84
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

+1 for charlieJ he knows what he is talking about
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Old 22-01-2014, 08:40   #85
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

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Originally Posted by konakoma View Post
I'm not relying on anyone for anything. Clearly, no one else on this forum is as smart as you but in keeping with American tradition of "Freedom of Speech", anyone can chime in with their own perspective or opinion, right or wrong.
.

You know I have been supportive of you on this thread, but I have to admit that I found this just offensive in general!

But that is just my American traditional free speech.
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Old 22-01-2014, 15:16   #86
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

I can't believe you are still disparaging Veco after they've been SOOOOO patient and helpful to you, IMHO way, way, way more than you were due. Your suggestion that they were at fault and should accept blame despite only having half of the failed part to inspect isn't reasonable and is what you WISH were true but you have no evidence to support that wish.

As many here opined, the problem was most likely caused by installer error, or you had a stray current problem during the period you were away from your boat. Neither of those issues are the manufacturers fault. Despite this, and despite you continuing to publicly disparage them, they have GIVEN you a free replacement! To me, that seems like amazing support. It is perfectly reasonable for them to want to be reassured that you have dealt with or have the proper equipment onboard to deal with any future stray current issues so this doesn't happen again. I really think that the only fault with them that you have proof of is that their dealer sent you two emails at the wrong address, who among us hasn't done the same? Other than that, you really couldn't ask for better service than you're received based on what I've read on this thread.

No, I don't work for them, I'm very happy with my water or air cooled Seafrost unit, but after reading this whole thread, if I ever need to replace it, I wouldn't hesitate to consider using Frigoboat just for the way they've gone the extra mile to make you happy despite the lack of any proof that they or their product were in any way at fault. You owe them an apology and huge thanks!
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Old 22-01-2014, 16:04   #87
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

I read all this, and it looks like an installer issue to me. Glad I was not part of it. Yes, I'm a vendor, and I do sell fridge systems.

This type of issue (with keel coolers) is why we sell the OZE fridge systems - they are water cooled as well, so have the low power draw, but use fresh water from the water tanks (they don't consume it!). No through hulls, no electrolytic issues.

see Here if you are interested.

By the way, I thought the companies involved did OK, dealing with an upset (understandably) customer can be difficult.

Matt
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Old 22-01-2014, 16:12   #88
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Kudos to frigoboat for stepping up and supporting their product.
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Old 22-01-2014, 16:14   #89
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Although I don't think they were obligated to by any stretch
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Old 22-01-2014, 18:31   #90
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Re: Frigoboat Horror (True) Story

I appreciate Konakoma giving us follow up. I disagree with the discussion about the Galvanic isolator as this would have happened due to stray current when compressor was turned on. What is uncertain from my view point is the partial short due to manufacturer or was it installer. (If full short, the protection would have operated wouldn't it) Asking either supplier/installer/manufacturer each would blame the other wouldn't they, personally I'd prefer independant testing, otherwise this issue will remain academic.
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