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Old 14-10-2012, 19:04   #16
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

I suppose this is the way karma bites you, for being a cheap SOB and buying a Beneteau instead of a proper yacht like Hinckley. I'll be there's no dust grate at the foot of the companionway ladder, either.

Cut the hose lines, slather some FRP over both sides of the valves,go sailing and try to remember to buy a better boat next time around.

<WEG>

Last time I tried to check into throughhulls and alloys, the "best" companies in the US all mumbled secret alloy compositions, and I said thanks, for a case of beer and a trip to my local college physics lab, some TA would give me the spectrographic analysis over the weekend. So much for secrets, glass reinforced nylon has sounded like the best way to go ever since. (I have zero tolerance for FUD.)
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Old 14-10-2012, 19:15   #17
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

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Last time I tried to check into throughhulls and alloys, the "best" companies in the US all mumbled secret alloy compositions,
There is no secret. The US builders either meet ABYC standards or not (all you have to do is ask) - and these standards are pretty clear. Beneteau (including their US factory) does not.

Many people are perfectly happy with the trade-offs that Beneteau makes. I do however believe it's important that the sailing community actually know what compromises Beneteau are in fact making and not be ignorant of them. In this specific (thruhull/seacock) case it means that owners should do more frequent and careful annual inspections than they might with an ABYC boat.
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Old 14-10-2012, 19:26   #18
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What about Spartan??

The focus on properly make seacocks usually mentions only Groco. I did see one brief reference to Spartan but no comments about quality, grade of bronze, etc.

As far as I can tell Spartan is the only company still making proper tapered plug seacocks. Anybody have one? Any comments on the grade of brass/bronze they use?

Bronze and Stainless Marine Hardware, Seacocks, Portholes, Thru Hulls - Spartan Marine Hardware and Accessories
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Old 14-10-2012, 21:56   #19
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

evans, I haveofetn askedmyself why Benny did things, and surprisingly often their approach make sense. They obviously have spent a lot of time looking for things that will reduce costs while not upsetting buyers. The copanionway ladders "curved" or angled steps impressed the hell out of me when I first met them. The few models where the rudder extends deepd than the keel, no so inmpressing me. But I give them serious credit for TRYING to break new ground. For using CF rudder posts instead of pot metal--which is what stainless steel really should be called in that application.

Sea plugs, through-hulls...Heck, I vote for the classic Grumman aluminum canoe as being THE PERFECT BOAT. Now let's hear everybody bitch about why that one's no good.<G>
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Old 14-10-2012, 22:30   #20
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

Sparton Seacocks are fine quality. The design is old fashion and requires a little more maintenance than a modern ball valve seacock but I'd be happy to have them on my boat.
The big draw back is the cost. A 3/4" Sparton will cost almost $200.00 more than a 3/4" Groco or Apollo seacock.

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Don't get me wrong, I love my classic Grumman canoe, but the ends are too high and it gets blown around. Also it has a nice high initial stablity but that tumble home makes it flip quickly once you overcome the initial stability.
If you use it hard the rivits will leak. I'm sorry, there just isn't a perfect boat or we'd all own it. Despite it's problems I do love my Grumman.
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Old 15-10-2012, 08:54   #21
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

After all the denial in other threads this email from Bendy-tow entertains me.


Lagoons Have Cheap Brass Thruhulls
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Old 15-10-2012, 09:00   #22
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

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Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Sadly this is a strict price issue. When people complain about the cost of marine parts, keep in mind the Groco (that still uses red brass) used a significantly premium product. But with the price of copper going up quickly, even quality manufacturers are getting squeezed.

Of course I have to mention it, but titanium is getting to the point that we can replace siliconized bronze, for roughly the same price... But at half the weight, and do not suffer from corrosion in salt water.
So . . . when will we be able to buy titanium sea cocks? If I could buy quality Ti seacocks (and through-hull fittings) for the same price as bronze, or even up to maybe double the price, I would be first in line.
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Old 15-10-2012, 09:10   #23
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Re: What about Spartan??

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Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
The focus on properly make seacocks usually mentions only Groco. I did see one brief reference to Spartan but no comments about quality, grade of bronze, etc.

As far as I can tell Spartan is the only company still making proper tapered plug seacocks. Anybody have one? Any comments on the grade of brass/bronze they use?

Bronze and Stainless Marine Hardware, Seacocks, Portholes, Thru Hulls - Spartan Marine Hardware and Accessories
I personally would not bother with tapered cone seacocks. They are a PITA in maintenance if you have a lot of them. I have I think 14 holes below my waterline . . .

I have bronze, not brass ball valves and through-hulls. They are 12 years old and work fine. I would rather replace ball valves every 15-20 years than lap and repack tapered cone seacocks every year. The main thing with ball valves is they need exercise. If you close all your seacocks everytime you leave the boat like you should, they will automatically get the exercise they need and will last for many years.

That being said, I would love to have titanium ones, if anyone starts making good ones.
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Old 15-10-2012, 09:41   #24
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

Tapered seacocks will last 4-5 years with out reservicing if done well. Just use fine sandpaper for a quick cleanup and lube with Lanolin instead of grease. Nothing wrong witha good quality ball valve seacock (not a valve screwed onto a thru hull) with a flanged base to bear the stress on the thru hull threads. I'm just not sure how you know what's a good ball valve or not..?
Titanium is one of the worst galling metals I know of... not sure what a Ti valve design would look like... would have to have something between mating moving parts? Then again... a ti gate valve would probably be great if properly designed..... and not have any surfaces likely to gall. I suppose a ti ball valve would have the ususal teflon (?) liner between the ball and body,...?
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Old 15-10-2012, 12:39   #25
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

We are currently in the process of trying to find an existing valve manufacturer to work with, since redesigning a part from scratch is a pretty major undertaking. Not to mention as a new manufacturer, getting space in catalogs and shelves is insainly difficult, even if you have a great product.

That being said, we do have a machined through hull (the price will come down once order size increases from 1-2 a month) that runs $46 for a 3/4" mushroom thru-hull. And will likely be more like $30 when we can start to cast them.

Right now though, since we don't make the valves, it's a hard sell, because of galvanic problems matching them to bronze valves.
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Old 15-10-2012, 20:46   #26
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

Many years ago a guy brought some titanium rail fittings to show me. They were beautiful! He was going to have them made in Russia. I told him he needed to get the price down pretty close to stainless if he wanted boat builders to use them. I guess he couldn't. We all still have rusty stainless rails.
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Old 27-10-2012, 15:52   #27
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

Thanks Estazinger, I am not sure what stuff to put on pipe threads and though that plumbers tape was best but I read your comment = "An owner can cure this problem by putting Teflon tape (or plumbers putty) on the threads, but it is not proper" what would you recomend please - MV-Romnya
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Old 27-10-2012, 16:55   #28
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

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Thanks Estazinger, I am not sure what stuff to put on pipe threads and though that plumbers tape was best but I read your comment = "An owner can cure this problem by putting Teflon tape (or plumbers putty) on the threads, but it is not proper" what would you recomend please - MV-Romnya
What I meant was that it was not proper to use miss-matched threads, even if you use thread sealant on them. Better to have matched threads - but obviously expensive to replace the hardware.

As to the best thread sealant.... Personally I use Teflon Pipe Dope when I am not to concerned about how it looks (it is usually a bit messy), and PTFE YELLOW - Double Density Teflon tape if its a gas fitting or the looks are important.

The tape must be installed correctly or it will work poorly. Begin at the end of the pipe, wrap the tape under tension in the direction of the thread turns. Each successive layer should overlap the previous layer by .. Continue until the entire threaded portion of the pipe is covered. (Minimum of 3 full turns).
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Old 28-10-2012, 11:14   #29
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

I've four Sparton Seacocks on my 40 year old boat. They look original. Pretty sure they have not been serviced in the last nine years. Though the original owner put grease fittings on them and I have put a squirt of grease in each one.

Odd are next haul out I'll take each apart and get some honing paste and clean up the cones/bores a bit.

The problem with ball valves, besides the cheaper ones (and even the not so cheap ones) de-zincing is the shaft design where it fits into the top of the ball is a pretty weak design across the range of ball valves. Too easy to shear over time. Groco has a recall out due to a faulty valve stem on 2004-2006 valves.

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Old 28-10-2012, 11:51   #30
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Re: Finally got the specifications of sea cocks from Beneteau. Unbeliveble

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I've four Sparton Seacocks on my 40 year old boat. They look original. Pretty sure they have not been serviced in the last nine years. Though the original owner put grease fittings on them and I have put a squirt of grease in each one.

Odd are next haul out I'll take each apart and get some honing paste and clean up the cones/bores a bit.

The problem with ball valves, besides the cheaper ones (and even the not so cheap ones) de-zincing is the shaft design where it fits into the top of the ball is a pretty weak design across the range of ball valves. Too easy to shear over time. Groco has a recall out due to a faulty valve stem on 2004-2006 valves.

SERVICE-BULLETIN
Yeah, I just dont get why they cant make that part more robust.... even on the Marelon ones...
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