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Old 11-03-2009, 17:27   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
Dave,

Ah you're overheating in a fiberglass knowledge contest but didn't notice that I indicated several times that I am no expert on the issue and thus your "FAIL" statement is not relevant.

The list of links is a Google search and shows anything within the search criteria.

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Nick
HMMM, I thought in this post

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
well, let me Google that for you:

Let me google that for you

cheers,
Nick.
You were making the point that you were more knowledgeable, that the hard spot issue was common knowledge and the link you provided was meant to belittle me for being to stupid to google it.

Was I mistaken?

Dave
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Old 11-03-2009, 19:31   #47
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Nick, polyester resin can be quite brittle. Much more so than epoxy. Epoxy will bend more before breaking. Epoxy shrinks less than polyester resin. Epoxy bonds better (secondary bond) to polyester resin than does polyester resin. Polyester resin emits noxious fumes when mixed and curing, epoxy does not. People can develop a sensitivity to epoxy which can cause skin rashes if the proper safeguards are not taken.

cburger, I can find no credible reference to being able to soften polyester resin in order for it to bind in a primary or molecular way with subsequent applications, such as a repair. In fact everything that I have ever read on fiberglass repair states that it is in fact a secondary bond. If you have a link to any credible resource that says polyester resin can be softened so that subsequent bonds form a primary or molecular bond I would really like to read it.
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Old 11-03-2009, 21:01   #48
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I'm with you, Deep. If you can create a molecular bond, its news to me. I've heard ALL repairs are mechanical bonds, and epoxy reigns supreme...of coarse this all has nothing what so ever to do with the original question of whether the poster can get away without using cloth reinforcement...
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Old 11-03-2009, 21:55   #49
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"If you can create a molecular bond, its news to me."
The usual way to create molecular bonds is by using a nanolaser to channel into the substrate material, and then inserting nanotubes at oblique angles under the surface of the old material, leaving half of their height standing proud of the old surface, so that when the new material is applied (by nanodozers initially to ensure a thorough wet-out) there is a 100% interlock between the two.
But of course once nanohelixes are available in larger quantities at lower prices, it should be possible to screw them right in, removing the need for the nanolasers and all the smoke they produce, along with any chance of heat damage to the old material.

Who slops on goo anymore? That's just SO twentieth-century....

(VBG)
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Old 11-03-2009, 22:04   #50
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Quote:
The usual way to create molecular bonds is by using a nanolaser to channel into the substrate material, and then inserting nanotubes at oblique angles under the surface of the old material, leaving half of their height standing proud of the old surface, so that when the new material is applied (by nanodozers initially to ensure a thorough wet-out) there is a 100% interlock between the two.
But of course once nanohelixes are available in larger quantities at lower prices, it should be possible to screw them right in, removing the need for the nanolasers and all the smoke they produce, along with any chance of heat damage to the old material.
ROFL

Chris;
I know, but have to prove a point here...<gr>
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Old 11-03-2009, 23:22   #51
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HMMM, I thought in this post [...] you were making the point that you were more knowledgeable, that the hard spot issue was common knowledge and the link you provided was meant to belittle me for being to stupid to google it.

Was I mistaken?
I replied to your post where you wrote you never heard of hard spots... it was just a Google search for those keywords. I don't use the normal Google URL because it has a ton of parameters incl. the browser I use etc. and I think it won't even work with another browser. There's also a little fun with that "Let me Google that for you" but that was about never having heard of the hard spot thing, not about your knowledge and certainly not about my knowledge! My area of expertise is electric/electronic/networks and that's far away from it! But we do all the projects aboard ourselves (for more than 6 years full time now) and the engineer in me results in reading all I can find about it so I think I know things on many areas... but mostly from books and my little projects, nothing professional.

Also, you later added to your post "never heard it created problems or that it was an issue" so it's all a moot point anyway ;-)

I am a stubborn/thorough guy so I don't take your word for it either. I even made test-laminates with plywood/fiberglass/epoxy and tried to hammer it to pieces, delaminate it, pull the cloth off with vicegrips etc. before I believed Nigel Calder and West System and used it for my renovated fridge/freezer boxes...they were right ;-) I am very impressed with epoxy and even after that hammering, I could not feel the impact locations with my eyes closed. Visually they were easy to identify (milky white instead of clear). The pull the cloth off test just resulting in delamination of the veneer layers of the plywood; the epoxy to wood bond was also stronger than the wood itself.

I am an amateur with epoxy, although I use it a lot. I built my first boat (a dinghy) when I was about 12 years old using plywood and epoxy with some fiberglass reinforcements at the joints (Mirror dinghy, you stitch the panels with wire first, weirdest method in those days). I always have a gallon of epoxy aboard, with several different hardeners, all West fillers and some fiberglass cloth and tapes. I need to add to that inventory regularly so I guess I use it often but at amateur level. (but I can do decent fillets now!!) I only have 1 book about it, that "Building wooden boats..." book from the Goucheon brothers and would like a book that also includes polyester and vinylester resins, methods, comparisons etc. and not written by a manufacturer. I find the info on the Internet lacking.

Reading and talking about it makes me itchy to build a boat...

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 12-03-2009, 06:12   #52
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OK, we all agree! Now, I only have to steer you all away from West System and toward MAS epoxies! (No, I have no interests in the company) I have tested both (unscientifically) and found that MAS retains a certain flexibility that West lacks, and I believe is important since boats continue to "work" throughout their lives. IMHO, Chris

BTW...Cat, Jedi and Deep ALL have tons of experience, and are all worth listening to! I'm not so sure about Hellosailor!
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Old 12-03-2009, 11:07   #53
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Christian...Is MAS an Eastcoast thing? I've never seen it in Ca. or Hi. Maybe I don't get out much.
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Old 12-03-2009, 11:53   #54
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I'm certainly not married to West System, but I do like that they have published so many test results and repair ideas. They seem to have done a nice job of keeping their information honest.

I'll keep MAS epoxy in mind.
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Old 12-03-2009, 11:54   #55
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"and found that MAS retains a certain flexibility that West lacks,"
Isn't West's new "G" series supposed to be a highly flexible product now?
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:16   #56
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I am currently using some Panamanian epoxy... seems to work well but bond to wood isn't as strong as West System.... I shipped some West System in again.

What I like about West System is that they have this whole line of products and the documentation for any application/repair on a boat. My best example is the empty. fillable cartridges for caulking guns, which made my big filleting job so much easier and faster. I don't think other brands have all these goodies in their assortment and many can't even be called a "system".

I agree that West must extend their offering with more formulations of resin & hardener like the new G series. I would also like to see a product for varnish-like finishing with good UV protection etc.

Another good epoxy is SP systems. It is kind of the EU version of West System.

I also keep that PC-11 or whatever number it is aboard. Two cans, 1:1 paste mix that can be applied underwater. The salvage companies that lifted boats after hurricane Ivan in Grenada used it with great success.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 12-03-2009, 13:00   #57
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Panamanian epoxy?

Nck, I wasn't aware that you needed a special epoxy to mend Panamanians, I thought plain old crazy glue would do. (VBG)
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Old 12-03-2009, 14:57   #58
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MAS is based in New Jersey, but they distribute from West Marine, Jamestown Distributors and Defender Industries...to name a few. They have two main resins; FLAG (Filleting, Laminating, and Gluing) which is thicker, and their regular slightly thinner resin. They offer three hardners; Slow, medium, and fast. Slow is NO BLUSH, medium is hardly any blush, and fast will make you blush if you hold the pot in your hand on a hot day! MAS has great videos online, and YOU CAN ACTUALLY SPEAK WITH THE OWNER if you have a question. Here's their website: Epoxy - MAS Epoxies: Home - Build & Repair Boats & Marine, Non-Skid Repair, Cars & Automotive, Woodworking, many other projects - Composites, Fiberglass Resins, Hardeners, Glues, Adhesives

As for West's new G-stuff...Thats supposed to be for flexible plastics and such. Too flexible! Really, I dont know about this stuff!

West Marine: West Marine Search Tool
Epoxy Resin West Marine: Low Viscosity Resin Product Display
MAS Low Viscosity Epoxy Resin
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