Ferocement crack - fixable or the boat trash?

[atoll]

Originally Posted by navado

I think I can have proper reparement of the boat in the winter, but need to go 1500Nm to the required location. What do you think is the proper conservation procedure of these cracks? Will epoxy fillment of cracks save cracks expansion for several months? The painting is required for sure, but what else?

chip it out,fill it up,fair and sand ,prime with under coat,apply anti fouling.

go sailing,next haul out rinse and repeat

[Basil]

If you like to pm I can put you in touch with Ebb Sawyers son who built many ferro yachts with him, An is an expert in this field
Mr Sawyer, was highly respected in the ferro boat building area an recently passed away.

If the boat was built by knowledgeable builders then it’s a good start.

[Taipe]

I urge you to walk away from it even if it were at a give-away price, for two reasons:
1) No matter how well the repair, it will never fully satisfy you as sound enough to survive another similar grounding;
2) the full keel design will hold it's course like a locomotive, but lamentably, makes it very difficult to come about when attempting to tack.

[moseriw]

Originally Posted by navado

How much time is that? Months? Years?
What it depends on?

What the hell do you expect? An expertise from worlds best ferrocement boat repairer or better an online survey report?

What you need is someone where the boat sits that can repair it. And he will be able to give you a timeline and price.

[Steve Bean]

As the owner since 1985 of a 32-foot ferrocement sailboat, I would not buy this boat without chipping away ALL of the damage. If the seller will not agree to this, I would look for a different boat. Minor repairs such as I have done can be done with epoxy mortar. Your pictures show what I would call major damage, calling for rebuilding armature and plastering with cementitious mortar. I recommend Colin Brookes' book, "Ferrocement Boats."

[GrowleyMonster]

I don't have a warm fuzzy feeling about this boat, and I am all about getting free or cheap boats. I think you need a consultant who really knows homebuilt ferrocement boats to come take a look, and the current owner is going to have to allow some considerable amount of chipping back of cement to inspect the steel. This of course will expose more steel to the elements, something he is unlikely to approve of.


The best guy to own this boat is the guy who built it. A well built ferrocement boat is literally rock solid. Why does he want to sell? Looks like a great boat if you like full keelers. Most of them are dogs to tack as another poster mentioned, but you can always fall off and jibe onto the other tack. Or "power tack" with the engine. Might not like going to windward. Neither one has to be a dealbreaker. It's just the crack, and doubt regarding the extent of steel wastage and the composition of the cement that is troubling, to me. If the price is right, you could throw the dice and take your chances, but I think there are better, safer gambles even among suspiciously underpriced boats. Maybe I am just being paranoid for never having owned a ferrocement boat, but if it were me I would regrettably let that one go, even knowing someone else MIGHT pick it up and have it totally seaworthy in a matter of a few weeks.

[a64pilot]

I’m sure as you should be that the reason that Boat is available and at such an attractive price is that crack.
I am no ferrocement guy at all, but do know that water is under hydraulic pressure in the hull of a boat, and given time it will permeate a semi porous structure to an amazing extent.
Proceed with caution, and I’d want a written report detailing the damage and suggested repair procedure from a licensed and insured expert.
I’d take that report to a yard that will tackle such a repair and get a quote.
Finding such a yard that will do that repair may be very tough to do.

The seller seems to be honest though, if they weren’t there would be a bondo repair job if you will and fresh bottom paint to hide the damage.

[hellosailor]

Navado-
Unless I missed it, you haven't said where you or the boat are located, making it impossible for anyone to recommend a local surveyor or other resources even if they knew of them. (I have no resources for ferro.)
Having documents from the builder helps, to be sure.
1500 miles for repairs? I'd suggest asking them about coming out to the boat, or as to how extensively they'd suggest repairing or patching it before trying that trip.

Wotname-
While there may be handy affordable portable x-ray guys in some places...maybe they can be found where there are oil pipelines, as those often need to be x-rayed to check the welds.
For the rest of us, the nearest portable x-ray or fluoroscope machines would be rather limited in size, just the rolling carts in hospitals. Shouldn't be hard to steal one of those but I don't think they'd lend it out. And it might be rather difficult to convince a boat to "just lie down over here" and fit on the machine.
I'm guessing it would take some serious money to have someone come out for the day with proper equipment for the job. Making intrusive testing a much better choice.

[a64pilot]

We had to X-ray the tail rotor blades once, it was a big hairy deal.
First I had to become a level 3 NDI, which I wasn't really qualified to be, then we had to conduct a radiological survey to determine what areas had to be cordoned off, which was up to a 1/4 mile in one area, yet my office in the hanger was OK.
Then conduct the inspections between 0100 and 0500 hours when it could be determined no personnel were present and in danger.

i know oil pipe lines and other things are 100% X-ray, but I'm unsure of what they have to do.
It cant be cheap to have done.

[Jannie Radiance]

Shhh! Slowly turn around...walk away gently , but firmly with intent. Don’t look back and nobody gets hurt.. when 27 m away .... fricken run!!!!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Jannie Radiance

Shhh! Slowly turn around...walk away gently , but firmly with intent. Don’t look back and nobody gets hurt.. when 27 m away .... fricken run!!!!

I think so, the world is fully of boats and boatyards full of projects if you want one, but steel or GRP would be so much easier.

This is what they are worth in good condition:


https://www.apolloduck.com/search.ph...q=1&x=0#result

[grantmc]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Navado - Unless I missed it, you haven't said where you or the boat are located, making it impossible for anyone to recommend a local surveyor or other resources even if they knew of them. (I have no resources for ferro.) Having documents from the builder helps, to be sure.

What the OP plans to do with the boat is also a significant factor. If only used as a live-aboard, with the odd Sunday sail, then it's a good choice, assuming the price is right. Then repatch with bog each year when she's antifouled. Expect to be able to do this for 10 years and by then she's worth zip. It's concrete so few people would want to buy her then (or now in reality).

If the plan is to sail seas and oceans then you've no choice but to strip back, find out exactly what the issue is, and its extent, and if required, insert new steel and concrete. That is a serious job that may require hard stand for months. But it is all DIY except perhaps any welding.

But maybe you'll get lucky, perhaps it is the join between the concrete and whatever is used for the ballast weight in the keel. It's really not clear from the photos provided exactly where the problem is on the hull. Maybe it's just a small localised bit of steel.

Sounds too like the owner has some knowledge about concrete, so why not ask him/her how it is planned to repair.

I'd also get a boat builder down to have a look, someone with some concrete boat knowledge obviously. Perhaps the seller might have some thoughts on a good person. Pay for an hour of their time to get a few ideas. Again I've no idea where you live, but in a relatively small place, and presuming the boat's been there for some years, the local boat builders will have noticed the boat and had the odd peak when she's hauled. And certainly the guys working in the yard will have a good idea, so hang round down there and be nice and chat. Have a few beers at the local boat club.

Maybe you can get the owners permission to stay on the boat for a weekend. This is often ok if you're travelling a reasonable distance to see the boat. Say you want a reasonable time to look and test all the electrics, plumbing etc etc. Spend some time on deck and it can be surprising who comes to visit. Just look like you're the new owner.

Clearly you need to assess the value and reliability of all information received from boat builders, the owner, forum posters, passers by, yacht club drunks et al. And especially what you want to do with the boat. A significant advantage with concrete is that you get a huge amount of boat for a very competitive price.

Consider too, if the worst happens, how you would scrap her and what that would cost. I've seen them used to make great cellars. But there's always someone looking for their village, especially if the price is right.

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by Jannie Radiance

Shhh! Slowly turn around...walk away gently , but firmly with intent. Don’t look back and nobody gets hurt.. when 27 m away .... fricken run!!!!

I agree. I have earlier owned a ferro CA, and I like the material, but I do not like the look of this. The repairs will probably be more expensive than the value of the boat.

And btw, Colin Archers tack nicely under all conditions. Perfect long range cruisers with a very comfortable motion. Not slow either. The hull does not go well together with bermuda rigg, so look for a gaff-rigged one. There are quite a few around in good condition.

[valhalla360]

The world is full of used boats.

This one sure seems like you would be buying a pig in a poke and hoping for the best. Much easier to keep looking, there are probably a dozen better options just at that marina.

[gbowen]

This looks like a great boat. All ferro boats can be fixed. I plastered my second ferro boat this week. My first one was a family home put in the water in 1977 and sold in 2011. There was never a corrosion problem.

For some reason the authors of all the well known books on building in ferro (also the US Navy Ferrocement Boatbuilding Manuals in two volumes) never mention grouting. In NZ in the 70s we always grouted our boats. I am enclosing a picture from a 1972 issue of the NZFCMA Bulletin showing a boat being grouted. Our guru was Brian Donovan. In this issue a drawing of his hand operated grout pump was published. It is shown to the left in the first photo.

I was offered round trip tickets to Hawaii for my wife and myself if I would grout a boat in Keehi Lagoon. I built a small grout pump that would fit in a suitcase and did the job. I was appalled at the extent of corrosion I found. The mesh had turned to black paste. I told the owners I believed the hull was unsafe and they sold the boat (problem fully disclosed) for a bag of diamonds. That buyer sheathed it with a skin of 3/8 in fiber glass. He said he had done it before. I wrote an article about it that was published in a special corrosion issue of the International Ferrocement Information Center at AIT.

We used an NDT specialist in NZ on occasion but it was too expensive for ordinary folks. It was an x-ray (or gamma ray) device. I saw a neat little handheld device at the World of Concrete. It was small and portable allowing a real time exam of reinforcing. I think it would pick up mesh. It was about $2k. It is available from Proceq USA, Inc, 4217 Grove Ave, Gurnee, IL 60031. They have a web site at www.proceq-usa.com

The only way you can be satisfied the boat is sound is by pressure grouting it. It is only a days work. Areas are drilled most likely to have voids: horn, stem and keel. As far as the patch required, piece of cake. Heat the rods to burn of salt, chip off loose material, use a patch material like Sika Latex in 2:1 sand/cement mortar. Use an additive like Kalamatron to avoid a wet cure and get high strength early.

I am enclosing a grouting pic, a pic of a boat in dire needs of repair that was fixed and my new boat plastered on Wednesday. It is an all mesh layup.