Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-02-2016, 08:56   #31
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,342
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
... I asked for proof...
Do your own due diligence.
__________________

__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 09:21   #32
Registered User
 
four winds's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wandering the US Gulf Coast
Boat: 78 Pearson323 Four Winds
Posts: 2,039
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

I was once selected for a continuing education class in the USAF called High Reliabilty Soldering. A month of eight hour days doing nothing but soldering and multi-pin connector repair. Sometimes 80 pins for data bus runs between black boxes. Circuit boards, power distribution, antenna triax cables, and more.

Using the best equipment and procedures available in a classified career field. So I have no trouble believing this training allows me to perform reliable repairs on my humble little boat's electrical system.

Tin, crimp, solder, shrink, secure. Never worry about it again.

One liner words of wisdom with no substantiation ain't gonna change anything.

Terra Nova, like you told me the other day, maybe you should stick to something you know about.
__________________

__________________
Life begins at the waters edge.
four winds is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 09:27   #33
Registered User
 
Celestialsailor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Mexico, working on the boat
Boat: Hallberg Rassy 35. and 14ft.Whitehall pulling skiff.
Posts: 7,923
Images: 5
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Do your own due diligence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by four winds View Post
I was once selected for a continuing education class in the USAF called High Reliabilty Soldering. A month of eight hour days doing nothing but soldering and multi-pin connector repair. Sometimes 80 pins for data bus runs between black boxes. Circuit boards, power distribution, antenna triax cables, and more.

Using the best equipment and procedures available in a classified career field. So I have no trouble believing this training allows me to perform reliable repairs on my humble little boat's electrical system.

Tin, crimp, solder, shrink, secure. Never worry about it again.


One liner words of wisdom with no substantiation ain't gonna change anything.

Terra Nova, like you told me the other day, maybe you should stick to something you know about.
There you go Terra Nova...Aerospace proof through "due diligence"...or is fourwinds a "hack" also?
__________________
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow - what a ride!"

http://wwwjolielle.blogspot.com/
Celestialsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 12:39   #34
Registered User
 
Terra Nova's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Marina del Rey, California
Boat: Freya 39 cutter- Terra Nova
Posts: 3,342
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Cs--if cut and paste is your idea of due diligence, good luck.
__________________
1st rule of yachting: When a collision is unavoidable, aim for something cheap.
"whatever spare parts you bring, you'll never need"--goboatingnow
"Id rather drown than have computers take over my life."--d design
Terra Nova is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 13:18   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,879
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
FWIW I rarely solder, but I have had several instances to solder on the boat, and there are some factory soldered connections also.
The factory connections are on some of the very small remaining bits of original wire, and have not failed in 40 years.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
It's not a guarantee of failure, but a potential for failure in cases where the wire may be subject to vibration, g-forces, poorly supported, bent repeatedly, etc.

On the equipment I've worked on, solder connections were allowed as terminations within connectors with proper strain relief or on terminal posts and of course on circuit boards, but never as a repair for a broken wire. The big hassle even then was ensuring that your source of solder and flux was easily cleaned with alcohol and proper anti-wicking and cleaning procedures were followed.

We once hired an elevator/escalator repairman out of pity and it turned into a nightmare. He was unable to follow instructions and incapable of paying attention to fine details. Everything he soldered over the course of probably 6 months came back to us failed about 2-3 yrs later. The upside was he was also kinda lazy so he didn't do as much work as the other workers for that time period.

Entire harnesses with hundreds of power connections had to be replaced in the field (from Guam to CT) and modules were mailed back to us with most of the components falling off of the boards due to acid flux wicking and improper cleaning. Part of this was caused by a supplier claiming their flux was easily removed with alcohol when in fact it wasn't, it was easily reactivated by humidity in the air. The damage to the company's reputation and cost of warranty repairs was almost immeasurable - the company didn't even want to total up the costs, they just ate it.

Properly crimped pins and connectors not only give an excellent contact area for optimum current flow (even within Canon plugs or Deutsch connectors) they also give strain relief via the insulator. Proper crimping is easily learned, but when soldering, some people camp on the joint too long and solder and flux wick up the cable under the insulation, causing corrosion that can eat through the cable, unseen, for years especially in humid environment.

I once saw a BZ solar controller where the entire board was very badly corroded and the unit was destroyed from excess flux left on the board and reactivated by humidity caused by a little bit of rain, it was mounted in an RV.

Put another way: yes, there are those of us who have graduated from high reliability soldering courses or micro miniature soldering courses and the resulting skill level allows us to solder connections that look like chrome. However, in my class, out of 10 skilled advanced soldering grads, 2 failed the 2M class. However, I use a $1200 rework station to do it and still prefer crimping because it's often easier to do in cramped spaces and results in better connections more often, especially for those without the advanced training.

Just because someone soldered a connection 20 yrs ago doesn't mean there isn't corrosion that wicked up inside. A properly crimped and heat shrunk (adhesive lined) connection is far less likely to corrode or degrade over time.

Good quality crimpers aren't cheap, I've got a few hundred $$ invested into those as well, especially for Deutsch and Canon plugs.
__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 14:51   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,879
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemack View Post
The argument against soldered joints on boats is complete Polux in my humble opinion.
Until you've seen a guy literally ripping his hair out trying to troubleshoot an intermittent wiring problem caused by a broken solder joint that was done properly but failed due to heat and vibration on his engine wiring harness.

It would (seemingly) run and stop at random. I helped him track it down by pushing and pulling on various parts of the harness until we isolated the section of harness and finally the wire. From the outside, it looked fine, but inside the insulation the wire was broken. We did a crimped butt splice just to get him home.

He had some choice words for his engine builder, who admitted to several other solder joints in the harness. He took it back and had the shop strip out the soldered wires and replace them with an unspliced wire from end to end. The reason stranded wire or cable is used so much is for it's ability to be flexed repeatedly without failure. You put a solder joint in that harness somewhere and bend the harness to conform to your desired path and it doesn't need to be flexed too many times during assembly before it breaks and becomes an intermittent problem, the hardest to find.

I think the 2 schools of thought we are discussing here are basically "this is good enough" vs "best practices." Yes, I'm sure the majority of boat owners aren't that picky about their wiring. I saw some real rat's nests under the dash of a lot of boats in Hawaii. I was also told that the #1 method of calling for help was via the cell phone, because the fire usually started in the electrical mess and rendered the VHF useless, so they were using the only thing that still worked, their cell phone.

I'm sure the time they spent waiting to get help seemed like a very long time while they thought of how they cut corners resulting in their current situation. Like has been posted many times before, a disaster at sea often started long before with a series of bad decisions leading to nothing working when you really need it.

I've never seen a situation where cutting corners led to a better outcome. One time I specced a ball bearing muffin fan for a computer enclosure, the boss overrode me in favor of a sleeve bearing fan that was about 25 cents cheaper per unit. We were only building about 200 units total. I warned him, he didn't listen. About 3 yrs later, they all started failing like clockwork and we had to send out teams of technicians to replace these from Guam to CT with the ball bearing fans I originally asked for.

Being the good little employee I am, when the crap hit the fan, I had emails backing up my recommendation vs his overriding decision. I told him, "Yup, we sure saved a lot of money on this one!" That was not a career enhancing moment for him.
__________________
socaldmax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 15:16   #37
Registered User
 
Reefmagnet's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Nantucket Island 33
Posts: 2,680
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Just about every top end multipole industrial connector I have worked with has had soldered connections e.g. Amphenol. I think the whole solder vs crimp argument is an old wives tale. Yes a bad solder connection can fail, as can a bad crimp connection. Aerospace would avoid solder because 1) They tend to use aluminium wires and 2) you can't solder aluminium and 3) if you could it would add unnecessary weight.

I've heard the "gas tight" crimp argument ad-nauseam and on that I call bunkum. If you can make a crimp join gas tight, you can equally make a solder joint indestructible. If you have a situation where a wire has enough continual movement at the interface of a solder joint to cause fatigue related failure, well you better redesign you system a bit better, buddy!

I'll continue to use crimps where warranted and solder where warranted. IMO either works just as good as the other in the correct application.

Flame suit on!
__________________
Reefmagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 15:26   #38
Registered User
 
Reefmagnet's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Nantucket Island 33
Posts: 2,680
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
Until you've seen a guy literally ripping his hair out trying to troubleshoot an intermittent wiring problem caused by a broken solder joint that was done properly but failed due to heat and vibration on his engine wiring harness.

It would (seemingly) run and stop at random. I helped him track it down by pushing and pulling on various parts of the harness until we isolated the section of harness and finally the wire. From the outside, it looked fine, but inside the insulation the wire was broken. We did a crimped butt splice just to get him home.

He had some choice words for his engine builder, who admitted to several other solder joints in the harness. He took it back and had the shop strip out the soldered wires and replace them with an unspliced wire from end to end. The reason stranded wire or cable is used so much is for it's ability to be flexed repeatedly without failure. You put a solder joint in that harness somewhere and bend the harness to conform to your desired path and it doesn't need to be flexed too many times during assembly before it breaks and becomes an intermittent problem, the hardest to find.

I think the 2 schools of thought we are discussing here are basically "this is good enough" vs "best practices." Yes, I'm sure the majority of boat owners aren't that picky about their wiring. I saw some real rat's nests under the dash of a lot of boats in Hawaii. I was also told that the #1 method of calling for help was via the cell phone, because the fire usually started in the electrical mess and rendered the VHF useless, so they were using the only thing that still worked, their cell phone.

I'm sure the time they spent waiting to get help seemed like a very long time while they thought of how they cut corners resulting in their current situation. Like has been posted many times before, a disaster at sea often started long before with a series of bad decisions leading to nothing working when you really need it.

I've never seen a situation where cutting corners led to a better outcome. One time I specced a ball bearing muffin fan for a computer enclosure, the boss overrode me in favor of a sleeve bearing fan that was about 25 cents cheaper per unit. We were only building about 200 units total. I warned him, he didn't listen. About 3 yrs later, they all started failing like clockwork and we had to send out teams of technicians to replace these from Guam to CT with the ball bearing fans I originally asked for.

Being the good little employee I am, when the crap hit the fan, I had emails backing up my recommendation vs his overriding decision. I told him, "Yup, we sure saved a lot of money on this one!" That was not a career enhancing moment for him.
In a high vibration environment, the cable must be supported ahead of the crimp. Machine crimps support the cable and that is why they are almost exclusively used in these applications. If you supported a soldered crimp in the same manner, it would survive too, hence why connectors designed for wire connection via soldering will work also.
__________________
Reefmagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 17:38   #39
Registered User
 
four winds's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wandering the US Gulf Coast
Boat: 78 Pearson323 Four Winds
Posts: 2,039
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Several good posts. Can't say I disagree.

Do believe it helps to do it right whatever the process. And I can recall times to not use solder as well.

Allegedly the flux I used was acid free and extended to be wicks up into the insulation. High strength insulation of some type.

Once had to tell a crew chief that a good engine must be pulled to repair a break mid run in the fuselage. He couldn't believe the location could be known, testing from the nose. Later my shop chief asked if I was sure and, I said yes.

My buddy had to dig into a big bundle of wires and started to sweat a little before finding the break. And frankly I can't recall if we soldered that one or not. Rarely ever had mid run breaks, can't recall another.
__________________
Life begins at the waters edge.
four winds is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 17:51   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 429
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

socaldmax specifically + anyone else, just to clarify my position:

I crimp larger lugs, more often solder 4 sq.mm. and down, crimp and solder ferrules.
Seen lots of failed joints in both processes so test my own severely.
My argument is that, given a skilled operator, both techniques work perfectly well.

Some people seem to believe that soldered terminals should be banned and that's just nonsense.

Bending to fit after soldering & inadequate support are examples of extreme bad practice that can cause joints to fail. Heat cycling and corrosion can cause both types to fail.

I accept that crimping operator training/skill requirement is less than that for quality soldering so its use ought to result in more good terminations industry-wide.
No argument with the theory.

Unfortunately my experience has been that the market, in the UK at least, is flooded with inadequate crimping tools and poor quality terminals.

I think I've read on MaineSail's pbase site that he names only one or two crimp tools and one or two types of terminal that he recommends.

I respect his expertise and hope I haven't misunderstood his meaning - but it seems to me that the implication must be that a large number of terminations will have been made with inadequate tools and sub-optimal terminations - by operators lacking MaineSail's expertise and diligence - and therefore may not be completely reliable.
__________________
unclemack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 02:30   #41
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 6,524
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
Just about every top end multipole industrial connector I have worked with has had soldered connections e.g. Amphenol. I think the whole solder vs crimp argument is an old wives tale. Yes a bad solder connection can fail, as can a bad crimp connection. Aerospace would avoid solder because 1) They tend to use aluminium wires and 2) you can't solder aluminium and 3) if you could it would add unnecessary weight.

I've heard the "gas tight" crimp argument ad-nauseam and on that I call bunkum. If you can make a crimp join gas tight, you can equally make a solder joint indestructible. If you have a situation where a wire has enough continual movement at the interface of a solder joint to cause fatigue related failure, well you better redesign you system a bit better, buddy!

I'll continue to use crimps where warranted and solder where warranted. IMO either works just as good as the other in the correct application.

Flame suit on!
+1000
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 03:29   #42
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,231
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I would love to see a study proving this. Besides, other than the engine on a boat where does vibration come into the picture?
Not just vibration, but any flexing at all. Solder in stranded wire makes it extremely brittle. Solder should never be used on a boat except inside closed electronics boxes not subject to vibration, and where the wires can't flex.

Ever see a soldered joint on an aircraft? I suppose it's probably even illegal.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 03:42   #43
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,231
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefmagnet View Post
In a high vibration environment, the cable must be supported ahead of the crimp. Machine crimps support the cable and that is why they are almost exclusively used in these applications. If you supported a soldered crimp in the same manner, it would survive too, hence why connectors designed for wire connection via soldering will work also.
The fallacy in this post is assuming that just because both crimped and soldered joints can fail due to flexing or vibration, that they are equally susceptible to this mode of failure.

They are most certainly not. A crimped connection preserves the flexibility of the wire strands. A soldered connection destroys this flexibility, because solder wicks down the strands and forms a solid, inflexible, brittle, weak mass.

Preserving the flexibility of the wire strands does not prevent any failure whatsoever -- there is a limit to how much flexing in one place copper strands can withstand. But flexible copper wire strands are about 1000x if not more resistant to failure from flexing, than tin/lead, which is a weak, brittle material.

And the quality of the soldering job has no influence on the basic properties of the materials involved.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 03:57   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 429
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Here's why you must never, ever, ever set foot in any Australian plane.
They pay Polux to keep it a secret but hundreds fall out of the sky every single day.

Seriously, it's true. I'm not making this stuff up.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/file...21c99s2c07.pdf

Oh, the humanity!
Won't somebody please think of the children?
__________________
unclemack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2016, 04:18   #45
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 17,231
Re: Ever used 3 way connectors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemack View Post
Here's why you must never, ever, ever set foot in any Australian plane.
They pay Polux to keep it a secret but hundreds fall out of the sky every single day.

Seriously, it's true. I'm not making this stuff up.

https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/file...21c99s2c07.pdf

Oh, the humanity!
Won't somebody please think of the children?
Something I didn't know. I withdraw my comment about aviation.
__________________

__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ST50 SeaTalk connectors scotte Marine Electronics 4 14-09-2016 11:36
Have you ever intentionally NOT used GPS on extended offshore passage? sneuman Navigation 15 17-06-2011 11:45
Anyone Ever Used Stalocks for Rigging ? w1651 Health, Safety & Related Gear 10 26-01-2011 07:02
Solar inline waterproof connectors Rangiroo Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 1 06-02-2008 19:18
SUPERTHERM multiceramics coating - anyone ever used it? WHIZBANG Construction, Maintenance & Refit 0 31-01-2007 13:33


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.