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Old 06-12-2015, 04:57   #1
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Epoxy top coat

Looking at painting my hull and looking at paint options. Just wondering if anyone has top coated with epoxy and has any feedback on the brand, quality of the finish and ease of application. Note that I'm referring to uv resistant epoxy topcoats.
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Robert
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Old 08-12-2015, 09:45   #2
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Re: Epoxy top coat

From what I recall epoxy coatings are not UV stabilized and do not hold their finish in sunlight. They are commonly used for primer coats, but not generally for top coats.
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Old 08-12-2015, 10:04   #3
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Re: Epoxy top coat

After they UV stabilize it, does it still shine? Sometimes uv stabilized just means it doesn't turn yellow.
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Old 08-12-2015, 19:27   #4
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Re: Epoxy top coat

The UV issue was the response I got from the old-timers down the boat club and the AWLGrip rep and there is no convincing otherwise. UV resistant epoxy top coats have been around for years but they tend to be used for industrial purposes eg PPG PSX700 is used by the US coast guard, on ocean rigs, bridges etc. Although not as glossy initially it apparently out performs 2 pac polyurethanes in the long term (see UV chart in the linked document). I applied it to a boat trailer which is out in direct sunlight and after about 4 years it looks as glossy as when I first applied it where as the navy blue AWLgrip topsides on my boat have pretty much lost all of its gloss (after 7 years) and is irreparable.
Im mainly interested in it because you can use it as a one coat system, it sticks better, is not as toxic as the isocyanates (unless you have built up an intolerance to epoxy) and based on its gloss and toughness on my trailer would last longer than the polyurethane 2 pac.
I just rolled it on the trailer thick so there is a fair bit of orange peel. I want to know if anyone out there has perhaps rolled/tipped it or sprayed it on their topsides.
https://docs.td.ppgpmc.com/download/...-PSX%C2%AE-700
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Old 08-12-2015, 19:44   #5
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Re: Epoxy top coat

Not sure if I should have posted a link to a manufacturer. I don't like spruiking a particular product but otherwise it will be a debate about epoxy and UV.
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Old 08-12-2015, 20:06   #6
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Re: Epoxy top coat

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Originally Posted by bobox View Post
The UV issue was the response I got from the old-timers down the boat club and the AWLGrip rep and there is no convincing otherwise. UV resistant epoxy top coats have been around for years but they tend to be used for industrial purposes eg PPG PSX700 is used by the US coast guard, on ocean rigs, bridges etc. Although not as glossy initially it apparently out performs 2 pac polyurethanes in the long term (see UV chart in the linked document). I applied it to a boat trailer which is out in direct sunlight and after about 4 years it looks as glossy as when I first applied it where as the navy blue AWLgrip topsides on my boat have pretty much lost all of its gloss (after 7 years) and is irreparable.
Im mainly interested in it because you can use it as a one coat system, it sticks better, is not as toxic as the isocyanates (unless you have built up an intolerance to epoxy) and based on its gloss and toughness on my trailer would last longer than the polyurethane 2 pac.
I just rolled it on the trailer thick so there is a fair bit of orange peel. I want to know if anyone out there has perhaps rolled/tipped it or sprayed it on their topsides.
https://docs.td.ppgpmc.com/download/...-PSX%C2%AE-700
My experience with industrial 2 part epoxy paints are that they degrade in the sun, but then the ones I've used are designed to be topcoated.

Seems you've already done a good real world test, if I were you I wouldn't have any qualms about using it. Even if it were thrice the price, the savings in application time and durability would justify its' use...providing the claims are accurate and your test is not an anomaly.
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Old 08-12-2015, 20:31   #7
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Re: Epoxy top coat

Other than the trailer Ive always top coated with polyurethane. From the manufacturers documentation it seems to be too good to be true, particularly the long term gloss vs 2 pac. If it was that good why is it not being used on recreational craft. I was thinking that perhaps the final finish is not acceptable. Its a big risk for me on a 50ft hull and I dont want to be the guinea pig. If based on that chart, it lasts 20 years vs 8 years of polyurethane it might be worth the risk. Most of the documentation revolves around coating steel but I did find a Coast Guard document relating to coating fiberglass and previously painted surfaces but no first hand accounts.
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Old 08-12-2015, 20:38   #8
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Re: Epoxy top coat

Other than this guy I cant find any other accounts as to its use.
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Old 09-12-2015, 04:28   #9
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Epoxy top coat

I'm away from the boat, so I don't have access to details and I'm relying on memory. I experimented with a competitive epoxy/poly paint XLE-80.

The promise of longevity and combination primer/topcoat was appealing. I researched the heck out of this stuff and decided the promise of a magic bullet was worth a shot.

I have experience with rolling/tipping Awlgrip and Perfection, but zero experience with spraying.

A paint pro volunteered his time and we painted a variety of deck sections, 3'x4' panels (vertical and horizontal), and interior lockers on my fiberglass cat. We sprayed and we rolled/tipped.

We invested many hours together and my $$$.

Throughout the project we consulted a field rep for the product, who was overseeing the painting of a USCG vessel in a NE boatyard. He was an experienced and straightforward fellow, who assured us the paint lived up to every claim ... but cautioned that we might not achieve a consistent "yacht quality" finish.

Bottom line: we couldn't get a consistent "yacht quality" finish. Essentially, the paint was too thick and required too much thinning, which we believed diminished the desirable properties of the paint. It is clearly a superb industrial quality paint.

That said, the Ameron version of this paint mix claims to be capable of providing a yacht quality finish. I watched as a 40' or so steel power boat that was rolled/tipped with the paint. It isn't yacht quality because the steel wasn't prepped for it. But several years later (the boat has remained on the hard) the blue paint is in superb condition and no sign of fading with a still shiny surface.

However, the painting part was very frustrating for the pro painters. They remained in close contact with Ameron techs to use additives to deal with varying temps and humidity issues. It was a long project that had problems, in part caused by unfamiliarity with the paint demanded by the customer.

My takeaway from all of this: Stick with purpose-proven products with good customer support that are within my budget. I'll leave the magic bullets for others to wrestle.

Roger


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Old 09-12-2015, 06:01   #10
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Re: Epoxy top coat

Thanks a lot Roger for that reply, that's exactly the feed back I was after. The active ingredient looks to be siloxane in both products. I suspected that the application/finish might be an issue, although even with AWLgrip it took a fair bit of tweaking to get the blue to roll and tip right. However if professionals had challenges with the epoxy I doubt if I would fare any better. Might be a paint suitable for people happy with a 10ft finish.
Thanks
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:38   #11
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Re: Epoxy top coat

Roger, just had a thought. Did you try heating the epoxy or applying it to a warm surface? I noticed with my trailer that the sections I painted later in the day looked better than the earlier ones. The only explanation I can think of, given that the mix was the same, is that the steel I was painting was quiet warm and allowed the epoxy to flow better (a similar result to thinning with reducers but with the same solids). There's no upper temperature on the datasheet for the PSX700 on the substrate. Perhaps its the opposite to polyurethane where you want to avoid the excessive heat.
Thanks
Robert
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:52   #12
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Re: Epoxy top coat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobox View Post
Looking at painting my hull and looking at paint options. Just wondering if anyone has top coated with epoxy and has any feedback on the brand, quality of the finish and ease of application. Note that I'm referring to uv resistant epoxy topcoats.
Thanks
Robert
UV Resistant epoxy is a marketing term.

What's wrong with a polyurethane finish?

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Old 09-12-2015, 07:48   #13
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Re: Epoxy top coat

Robert,

We were painting in a heat-shrinked/framed hangar about 45'x18' that covers the entire boat, except for protrusions by the mast/rigging. Hard doors and zippered doors allow for ventilation/fans. Thus, surfaces are protected from direct sunlight (but interior tarps were also used to provide real shade), rain, dust and wind. We weren't painting the entire boat, just specific sections and pieces that allowed me a workable level of non-commitment if things went awry with the experiment. In the end, no harm done.

Paint and fg surfaces were at similar temps in 70-80 f in early fall wx. We did try warming surfaces, but that only accelerated the chemical reaction of the paint and didn't allow it to "settle". The paint was thick and required thinning to allow it to flow and settle, but each formulation was only applicable to each batch of paint, which in turn depended on whether it would be rolled/tipped or sprayed. And allowances had to be made for vertical or horizontal surfaces. I kept logs to in an attempt to establish repeatable mixes, but for our circumstances that proved unsatisfactory.

We mixed paint in batches that only rarely exceeded 8oz, because it set off too soon, and we always used trays when rolling/tipping.

At cooler early am temps the paint was too thick to apply and required too much thinning.

I suggest you contact the current producer of the Ameron version of the paint and discuss your application with some competent tech staff - not sales staff. Their current product might be on target.

I'll be interested in knowing how you progress.

Roger


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Old 09-12-2015, 08:30   #14
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Re: Epoxy top coat

Roger, thanks again for the information. Sounds like you went to great efforts with the product and approached the exercise in a methodical manner. I did make contact with an Asia Pacific rep but they weren't too interested. There focus is on infrastructure not recreational boaters. There is a wind farm which was done in 2007 so I might see if I can get up close and see what condition its in.
Here is the link to the instructions for the Coast Guard for applying the product. http://ppgpmcalliances.com/alliances...700package.pdf

In answer to "leftbrainstuff", if you think isocyanates are fine and are happy to fork out the cash and sweat every 8 years or so then don't bother investigating any of the alternatives that might be out there. Akzo Nobel thanks you.

Thanks
Robert
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:49   #15
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Re: Epoxy top coat

Are Ameron and PPG the same products? Different manufacturers sometimes manufacturer products in the same class that are worlds apart in application and performance. I too am always interested in doing things better....
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