Epoxy Resin Guesstimate Request!

[Boatguy30]

One note. Have recently used a lot 100 gallons of Raka and US composites. The US composites is noticeably more brittle than the Raka. I went back to Raka for my keels and rudders. Is about 20% or so more expensive.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Meaning way thicker I'm guessing?

Sure, and lots of carbon fiber. Finished with a layer of quadriaxial s-glass.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

One note. Have recently used a lot 100 gallons of Raka and US composites. The US composites is noticeably more brittle than the Raka. I went back to Raka for my keels and rudders. Is about 20% or so more expensive.

Yep, Raka is certainly superior to US. US is cheapest for good reason. I much prefer Proset to other laminating resins, myself. You get what you pay for...

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by minaret

Lol!


Why you guys make this so complicated? You want a resin/fiber ratio of 50/50 or less. So weigh your cut glass, and get the same weight of resin plus 10% for wet out and loss after squeegee. If you do good quality work and get your resin ratio down around 40% or less, you will have resin left over. Don't forget your peel ply!

This is one way I ensure quality laminate by newbie laminators. If you put everything on the scale, and hand a guy a roll of cut glass with the same weight of resin and no more, he can't possibly make a rich laminate. Which almost any newbie laminator will do, if left to their own devices.

You see??? This is why we have professional friends!
(and personal anxiety)
I've mixed a hundred layup batches, and not once weighed glass...
so I have a little extra juice each time... How would I ever add to my shop knicknack/museum/art shelf???
Titles: 1. chipping brush repose 2. yard gravel stuck to cup 3. misplaced for the last time kid figurine in suspended animation...

re: rich laminate, I'm a pretty diligent scraper... and add coats after if I want/need 'em.... Peel Ply Check!

Originally Posted by minaret

You put a meter on that bottom?

Well... er... uh... uhm... in a word...(or 5 words)... no.....
BUT! Lemme 'splain my reasoning....
1. These were barnacle "bites" outta the gel, not trapped blisters. I didn't have any yellow glycoleeee deposits...
2. She was acid bathed, pressure washed, stripped with 36, pressure washed, ground out, and sat for 6 mo with regular freshwater baths...
3. The hull interior gel is far less than a barrier it was meant to be...
4. A moisture meter would have doubled the $ I have in the boat
5. The resin and materials were bought for fun and don't calculate into the investment... I consider them entertainment consumables like cigars and liquor... It helps me feel better about it...

Originally Posted by minaret

You'd really be traumatized by the laminate schedule on my rudder!

I AM! I had to mult quote to get to this point!

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Meaning way thicker I'm guessing?

Boy... you and I think simple huh? If only we had those guru skillz...

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

One note. Have recently used a lot 100 gallons of Raka and US composites. The US composites is noticeably more brittle than the Raka. I went back to Raka for my keels and rudders. Is about 20% or so more expensive.

Rott Roww Rastro..... Whooooopsie....
I priced RAKA/JD/FGCI/US... The two suggestions Raka and fgci had really great prices, but US beat 'em by the 20% mentioned... This sucks... I shoulda done some more resin homework... I've used about 4 different brands, and hadn't noticed a difference... justa brain fart, as I woulda picked quality over 20% any day...

Originally Posted by minaret

Sure, and lots of carbon fiber. Finished with a layer of quadriaxial s-glass.

OK... Thicker, exoticky carbon, quadriaxial.... Why stop there??? Skip right over the quinti-axi, and go for the sexi-axi... hack...

Originally Posted by minaret

Yep, Raka is certainly superior to US. US is cheapest for good reason. I much prefer Proset to other laminating resins, myself. You get what you pay for...

OK... so the $64,000 question... Or precisely $687 question...
How bad did I eff up with the resin de doo doo???
Anything I can do to improve the characteristics? Additives?
Suck it up?

[atoll]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

You see??? This is why we have professional friends!
(and personal anxiety)
I've mixed a hundred layup batches, and not once weighed glass...
so I have a little extra juice each time... How would I ever add to my shop knicknack/museum/art shelf???
Titles: 1. chipping brush repose 2. yard gravel stuck to cup 3. misplaced for the last time kid figurine in suspended animation...

re: rich laminate, I'm a pretty diligent scraper... and add coats after if I want/need 'em.... Peel Ply Check!



Well... er... uh... uhm... in a word...(or 5 words)... no.....
BUT! Lemme 'splain my reasoning....
1. These were barnacle "bites" outta the gel, not trapped blisters. I didn't have any yellow glycoleeee deposits...
2. She was acid bathed, pressure washed, stripped with 36, pressure washed, ground out, and sat for 6 mo with regular freshwater baths...
3. The hull interior gel is far less than a barrier it was meant to be...
4. A moisture meter would have doubled the $ I have in the boat
5. The resin and materials were bought for fun and don't calculate into the investment... I consider them entertainment consumables like cigars and liquor... It helps me feel better about it...


I AM! I had to mult quote to get to this point!


Boy... you and I think simple huh? If only we had those guru skillz...



Rott Roww Rastro..... Whooooopsie....
I priced RAKA/JD/FGCI/US... The two suggestions Raka and fgci had really great prices, but US beat 'em by the 20% mentioned... This sucks... I shoulda done some more resin homework... I've used about 4 different brands, and hadn't noticed a difference... justa brain fart, as I woulda picked quality over 20% any day...



OK... Thicker, exoticky carbon, quadriaxial.... Why stop there??? Skip right over the quinti-axi, and go for the sexi-axi... hack...



OK... so the $64,000 question... Or precisely $687 question...
How bad did I eff up with the resin de doo doo???
Anything I can do to improve the characteristics? Additives?
Suck it up?

you could thicken your resin slightly with collodial silicone for your first layer of mat on the rudder,provides better adhesion,and fills any low spots that might end up as air bubbles.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by atoll

you could thicken your resin slightly with collodial silicone for your first layer of mat on the rudder,provides better adhesion,and fills any low spots that might end up as air bubbles.

On the list of "things I have never done"... This sounds pretty grand...

Say you somewhere between ketchup (catsup) and mayo??? Or more like molasses?... just a smidge, 10%?

[atoll]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

On the list of "things I have never done"... This sounds pretty grand...

Say you somewhere between ketchup (catsup) and mayo??? Or more like molasses?... just a smidge, 10%?

just a smidge,probably 5% is plenty,just fills microscopic voids better,

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by atoll

just a smidge,probably 5% is plenty,just fills microscopic voids better,

ROGER!

[minaret]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

You see??? This is why we have professional friends!
(and personal anxiety)
I've mixed a hundred layup batches, and not once weighed glass...
so I have a little extra juice each time... How would I ever add to my shop knicknack/museum/art shelf???
Titles: 1. chipping brush repose 2. yard gravel stuck to cup 3. misplaced for the last time kid figurine in suspended animation...

re: rich laminate, I'm a pretty diligent scraper... and add coats after if I want/need 'em.... Peel Ply Check!



Well... er... uh... uhm... in a word...(or 5 words)... no.....
BUT! Lemme 'splain my reasoning....
1. These were barnacle "bites" outta the gel, not trapped blisters. I didn't have any yellow glycoleeee deposits...
2. She was acid bathed, pressure washed, stripped with 36, pressure washed, ground out, and sat for 6 mo with regular freshwater baths...
3. The hull interior gel is far less than a barrier it was meant to be...
4. A moisture meter would have doubled the $ I have in the boat
5. The resin and materials were bought for fun and don't calculate into the investment... I consider them entertainment consumables like cigars and liquor... It helps me feel better about it...


I AM! I had to mult quote to get to this point!


Boy... you and I think simple huh? If only we had those guru skillz...



Rott Roww Rastro..... Whooooopsie....
I priced RAKA/JD/FGCI/US... The two suggestions Raka and fgci had really great prices, but US beat 'em by the 20% mentioned... This sucks... I shoulda done some more resin homework... I've used about 4 different brands, and hadn't noticed a difference... justa brain fart, as I woulda picked quality over 20% any day...



OK... Thicker, exoticky carbon, quadriaxial.... Why stop there??? Skip right over the quinti-axi, and go for the sexi-axi... hack...



OK... so the $64,000 question... Or precisely $687 question...
How bad did I eff up with the resin de doo doo???
Anything I can do to improve the characteristics? Additives?
Suck it up?

You'll be fine-it's epoxy.


But for future reference, Proset costs substantially more but wets out so much nicer that I find I tend to use much less of it for the same layup. This means it costs about the same in the end, and it also gives you a leaner layup. As well as being a better resin.

If you are hand laminating, best advice I can give is peel ply. It will also help you achieve a leaner layup with less air in it.


If you ever really feel the need for a meter, gimme a shout and I'll loan you one. I have two.

[Blue Crab]

No one has mentioned West System. Old tech now?

?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

No one has mentioned West System. Old tech now?

?

Proset is WEST System's laminating resin. 105 is strictly for bonding, the viscosity is terrible for laminating. Talk about rich layups!

[Horror Hotel]

I like the RAKA better than west by a mile .

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by minaret

Proset is WEST System's laminating resin. 105 is strictly for bonding, the viscosity is terrible for laminating. Talk about rich layups!

Thanks Cap. I've only used the 105. Never even paid any attention to other stuff. Another great learning thread.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

Thanks Cap. I've only used the 105. Never even paid any attention to other stuff. Another great learning thread.

Right??? I mentioned in another thread recently... 98% of the time I dole out advice (albeit mostly questionable), but the learning part... man... invaluable...

(***edit*** The 98% should be adjusted to 87% questionable self gratifying humor and 11% questionable advice...)

It's all relative... You and I throw a laminating project together and friends stopping by would think it's magic....

Minaret throwing a project together and we stop by... we ooh and ahh a little bit... then we start to back away... cause it starts looking more like voodoo... and it scares us a little... 'Tis to be respected... and from a respectable distance...

I stopped using West a while ago... too many cheaper alternatives that are actually easier to use... thinner like min said...

Crap pic, but the form is just about done...148lb package arrives today.... Will update with the progress!

[HappyMdRSailor]

Update for those interested...

Rudder rebuild is just about done... final "anal" fairing, barrier, and antifoul remain...

Resin usage about expected, one gallon left over for multiple needed other projects...

Lessons Learned:

I wasn't in love with the US epoxy for laminating biax... It was a bit too thick for my liking, but didn't want the hassle of thinning... All in all, it performed well though...

2. I should have cut my shaped form for laying the tip glass in layers... It was a pain removing the form until I attacked it with 1" drill bit...

3. I should have attatched the finished shell to the main section before filling more it than 1/2 with the foam. The shell tip distorted from original dimensions at the open end from foam expansion, causing me extra work... After attaching and foaming the 2 pieces together, I had to grind through some good glass to get back to decent dimensions before laying full side glass...

4. In retrospect, I would have skipped the kevlar tape for the leading and trailing edges... This stuff was a Uber-Pain to fill/fair ...

Pics:

1. Rudder tip with 3 layers of biax over foam form
2. Tip and main together
3. finished tip
4. removing foam form with drill bit
5. Tip 1/2 filled with 16 lb foam
6. Starboard side of main rudder panel cut away to reattach with thickened epoxy (done on both sides)
7. 1000 lb weight stack on curing side panel
8. Ready to pour foam to join pieces
9. Completed roughed blade
10. 95% faired and finished
11. Cigarette ash makes a terrible fairing additive...