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Old 15-08-2013, 16:42   #46
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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What non invasive methods?


Ultrasound, X-Ray Radiography, Magnetic Particle Flaw Detection.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:48   #47
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

When I was in Australia, most likely in 2001, a Farr 40 hit a rock off Danger point. The keel was knocked off. Deaths occurred.

For a boat that costly to buy, I'd think the keel wouldn't be easily knocked off.

Anyone know what sort of keel it would be? I suspect bolt on...
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:57   #48
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Ultrasound, X-Ray Radiography, Magnetic Particle Flaw Detection.
having worked with these in aerospace, I can tell you this is faulty application if you think you can tell if bolts in a keel are any good with any of those listed. Xray is very limited and in fact is hardly applicable to even a simple fillet weld, Butt welds are fine. A lead keel is going to shield the xray from twlling you what the actual bolt looks like. Mag Particle is only going to tell you what the surface looks like. Ultrasound is... well about as good as trying to detect a minute cancer cell in your body with it intead of an scan.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:58   #49
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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When I was in Australia, most likely in 2001, a Farr 40 hit a rock off Danger point. The keel was knocked off. Deaths occurred.

For a boat that costly to buy, I'd think the keel wouldn't be easily knocked off.

Anyone know what sort of keel it would be? I suspect bolt on...
Race boat, doesn't count.

John
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Old 15-08-2013, 17:02   #50
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

Keel stub or not, often bolt on keels have a sharp radius.. (it's a racing technology thing... you get .01 more knots of speed or something like that!) Let's compare the radius on some common bolt on keels with an encapsulated one. Beneteau, Swan and Jeanneau. Hans Christian encapsulated in the next post:
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Old 15-08-2013, 17:09   #51
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

Hans keel. Typical of many of these type, the radius will be larger than a dinner plate...
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Old 15-08-2013, 17:11   #52
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

Hmmmm. Which is of more concern? Bolt on and contained keels or exposed rudders?
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Old 15-08-2013, 17:12   #53
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Hmmmm. Which is of more concern? Bolt on and contained keels or exposed rudders?
I would vote rudders!
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Old 15-08-2013, 17:15   #54
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Hans keel. Typical of many of these type, the radius will be larger than a dinner plate...
Nice!

Well protected rudder too.
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Old 19-08-2013, 17:40   #55
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

Thanks again everyone for the great discussion on bolt-on vs. encapsulated keels. I've tried to summarize what I've learned from you guys on this topic on my blog. Hopefully, I understood the key issues/points! Basically, I think it boils down to - some people prefer bolt-on keels, some people prefer encapsulated keels

The Cynical Sailor & His Salty Sidekick: Boat Buying Tips Without Too Much Salt (Pt 3) - Bolt On Vs Encapsulated Keels

Thanks - Ellen
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:06   #56
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Good day, recently purchased Sea Star, a Barberis Show 30. 30' sloop. Beautiful boat- but evidently not many in North America.
Italian Built. Surveyer suggested torquing farthest aft keel bolt- any suggestions as to the amount of torque?
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:44   #57
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Good day, recently purchased Sea Star, a Barberis Show 30. 30' sloop. Beautiful boat- but evidently not many in North America.
Italian Built. Surveyer suggested torquing farthest aft keel bolt- any suggestions as to the amount of torque?
Could be a good idea to contact with Barberis yachts if there is still in business.
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:15   #58
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
having worked with these in aerospace, I can tell you this is faulty application if you think you can tell if bolts in a keel are any good with any of those listed. Xray is very limited and in fact is hardly applicable to even a simple fillet weld, Butt welds are fine. A lead keel is going to shield the xray from twlling you what the actual bolt looks like. Mag Particle is only going to tell you what the surface looks like. Ultrasound is... well about as good as trying to detect a minute cancer cell in your body with it intead of an scan.


Funny, I know a number of professionals who use all of these methods for keel bolt inspection. Often on very large yachts, where its much cheaper to go this route over removing the keel. Perhaps they know something you don't?
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:48   #59
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Funny, I know a number of professionals who use all of these methods for keel bolt inspection. Often on very large yachts, where its much cheaper to go this route over removing the keel. Perhaps they know something you don't?
Perhaps they do. Or perhaps it's like a lot of people who swore that snake oil cured their ill's........ is it useful?... possibly. is it conclusive?.... not at all.
I think maybe it's a bit like a newbie saying " hurray, my boat passed survey... I'm headed to the south pacific tomorrow.."
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:53   #60
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

NO keel bolts - no worry; skeg rudder - no worry. 58 Camper-Nicholson; 36 tons; 15'-8" beam. Keel is about 12 inches thick with a swing CB. Draft 6'-8" tp 13 ft. Rudder blade is 6 feet X 30", epoxy carbon fiber over epoxy-microballoon syntactic foam. (bullet-proof)

GO BLUE (next year )

The only draw back I see is a resulting large turning radius. Maneuvering in tight places is tough. We learn to anticipate and rely on assistance form wind drift and prop walk. The long cantalever from the rudder post makes sail trim errors instantly apparant in weather helm. The boat is easy going on the water and less prone to being pushed around by waves than the fin-keel cantalevered racing designs. We don't race any more and for cruising, this is like riding the living room couch.
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