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Old 15-08-2013, 14:11   #31
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Originally Posted by zeehag View Post
your choice---lose it or ding it.... lead is a poison and no longer used in keels--has been that way for decades. go figger.
Lead is still commonly used in keels zee

The racers even want to use depleted uranium
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Old 15-08-2013, 14:20   #32
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Lead is still commonly used in keels zee

The racers even want to use depleted uranium
You beat me to it. New builds are still getting the lead treatment!! And we don't have cement in our keel now!!
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Old 15-08-2013, 14:27   #33
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

Yes concrete is heavy, but not compared to lead. Density of lead 11,300 kg/m^3, concrete about 2,400 kg/m^3.

To get the same ballast weight in the boat your keel would have to be about 4.5 times bigger.
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Old 15-08-2013, 15:50   #34
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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MOST encapsulated keels are concrete with stuff added to it for weight. (...)
?

Asking because I know some and they are all either lead or else iron (I bet meaning cast iron).

b.
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Old 15-08-2013, 15:58   #35
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Originally Posted by Ellen Bumblebee View Post
Thanks to everyone for all of your great comments on this issue. It doesn't seem to be a clear-cut issue and certainly a lot for me to get my head around! We're looking to upgrade our boat later next year and I'm trying to learn more about the various choices and options that there are so that I can be a better informed buyer. This discussion has been really useful. It's great to see so many people willing to help out a newbie like me. I'm sure I'll have a million more questions to come!
The only clear thing about it is if it's bolted on, the only way you'll know if it's sound is to remove it and rebed it. If it's encapsulated... go cruising.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:17   #36
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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The only clear thing about it is if it's bolted on, the only way you'll know if it's sound is to remove it and rebed it. If it's encapsulated... go cruising.
Cheechako, is your ballast encapsulated concrete perhaps?

b.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:27   #37
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

I had one boat that was "something" in cement. Supposed to be lead...but who knows? Another boat was lead and steel punchings in resin. I've not seen too many boats that were just cement filled other than fishing boats , although some sailors have the ballast with cement poured over it in the keel.. My Passport was encapsulated lead. My Tanton 44 was reportedly the same. Not sure what the HC 38 was. I'm not all that fond of Cement as a "filler over the ballast, but it does work well for the $..... unless you haul out in the hard freezing areas of the country in winter. A yard of cement $100+/- a barrel or two of resin...?
Why do you ask?
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:28   #38
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

Ok guys, I have a boat with a sump and a bolt on???

Look into the testing Dehler did on their bolt on keels.

Crash Test - Dehler 31 yacht - YouTube

Derek
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:31   #39
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

Good thread/info.

Got my camera into my bilge for the first time. Able to see things that I have not seen for 37 years.

Dad was not to rigorous with his keel (aluminum) prep before pouring cement and lead. Looks like he just slapped on a quick coat of something. If I were installing the ballast today, I would probably sandblast the inside of the keel and follow with umpteen coats of some super paint.

I was careless for several years while Panope was on the hard. I let rainwater (holes in deck from unfinished projects) stand on top of this ballast - even through freezing winters. Guess I lucked out there - no freeze damage.

Anyway, its a little dirty down there but no problems.

Steve
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:32   #40
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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The only clear thing about it is if it's bolted on, the only way you'll know if it's sound is to remove it and rebed it. If it's encapsulated... go cruising.


Not true, there are lots of non invasive methods for testing keel bolts. I've posted quite a few. Usually costs less than a boat buck.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:34   #41
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Rebolting bolted on is only doable when the bolts sit in pockets. I have seen plenty of bolts actually set in the ballast. No way to rebolt, methinks. (?)

The boats I know with encapsulated are lead ballasted. I know of one make with iron encapsulated keel and I have never seen any issues with that make either. Sure, if you happen to do the sea bottom survey job, you must lift the boat and fix any damage done. Same as you must fix any damage on a bolt on keel.

b.

I've rebolted many, either by sistering or with cheek bolts.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:36   #42
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

Good reading.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:37   #43
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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negativity!! every keel you opened up was not made up of pure lead? You must have been looking at some boats there. Most encapsulated keels are lead billets shaped to fit in the fiberglass shell and then installed and glassed over to protect the boat interior. boats that put in bits and pieces of iron, lead or concrete then I supposed glassed over are ones that homebuilders have done. name one production boat that did this! I bet you can't. how would anyone be able to predict the keel weight without casting a lead billet. can you imagine a yacht designer having his name attached to a design that was no where near the design weight of the ballast, talk about lawsuits! for one thing, if you don't use lead or iron to specs, the ballast will be too light, you could not carry design sail area.

Obviously, the ones I've had to open all the way up to dry out were problem keels. Never had to open one that was single piece cast lead. It does exist, but you'd be surprised how many builders don't go that route.
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:38   #44
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Not true, there are lots of non invasive methods for testing keel bolts. I've posted quite a few. Usually costs less than a boat buck.
What non invasive methods?
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Old 15-08-2013, 16:39   #45
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Re: Encapsulated vs. Bolt On Keels - Pros/Cons

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Encapsulated are the way to go for cruising. A bolt on keel is just another big ticket/hard to fix item to worry about you dont need. Also, Bolt on keels often have less area distributing the stress of a grounding though the hull. (ie: the radius where the keel meets the hull is smaller) So when you search "grounding damage" you will likely find a bunch of info on repairing the cracks or "smiles" forward and behind the bolt on keel from grounding.
Are good boats built with bolt on keels? sure some are. Are encapsulated keels more foolproof? mo debbley... do bolt on keels require maintenance that rarely gets done? Mo Debbley...

Generally only very small boats have an iron bolt on which bolts into an inset in the hull with no keel stub. The vast majority of bolt ons have a substantial keel stub, therefore no difference in the keel/hull radius department.
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