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Old 16-03-2016, 13:08   #91
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Yep.

For many cruisers, the motor is a substitute for light air sails. And there's nothing wrong with that I guess.
I can see firing up the Iron Genny, in order to catch the tides in a pass at the right time. Or if the 3kts it adds for 1/2day means making port well in advance of a coming system. Vs. being caught in it, relatively close to land/port.
Otherwise, yep, Canvas (& the like) rules.

I love to sail (not all cruisers do), and I have worked really hard trying to get my boat to sail better, and the result is that now with the new larger headsail (I now have two different carbon headsails) I can make 2/3 of wind speed over a fairly wide range of conditions. This allows me to sail more than previously, in conditions where previously I would need the motor.

The other goal was to be able to make 5 knots VMG to windward in 15 - 20 knots of wind. I didn't quite achieve that (only in absolutely perfect conditions), but my ability to get dead upwind has been enormously improved, especially in stronger conditions where my blade jib comes into its own. This also allows me to sail more than previously.
Is this a tough feat to pull off on your boat? As I've never owned one where it was. Even the little ones, in much less wind.

But despite all that my motor is working for a significant percentage of miles I make, and the variable pitch prop is genius for this.

I'll need it less when I eventually set up a Code 0 for light conditions, but at the moment, motorsailing is my substitute for light air sails.


For a boat set up like you like -- a light racer/cruiser, or a catamaran, for example, with a good sail inventory, the Autoprop is no good because of drag, and you can't buy a Hundested in that size. So variable pitch is just not an option. In that case, I think I would go to Gori with the overdrive.
I wouldn't call what I consider a "basic" cruising inventory extensive, but... It'd be:
- Mainsail
- #2 on the furler (120-135%). So that it rolls down to a #3 & retains decent shape.
- Solent. Say 75% of the foretriangle
- Storm Canvas
- Plus, Lighter Air/Downwind Sails, $ permitting. And pre-loved kites (many with shuffers) are dirt cheap, if you keep your eyes open. Ditto on wire Luffed, free flying reachers. And the latter are easy to make/have made.
That or a plethora of options, in terms of sail types & sizes, to hank onto a Solent Stay.

So, with the above basics, unless the boat's a slug, you'll keep moving at a decent clip, with winds well down into the single digit range. And that's all of 2-3 headsails, plus storm canvas.


PS: I'm doing some digging as I'm editing this, & it appears that there may be a lot more in the way of mid-sized controllable pitched propellers out there. It'll be GREAT news if it pans out!
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Old 16-03-2016, 13:58   #92
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

My idea is similar.

120% Yankee jib
90% blade
Furling Main (no trysail required)
Extra heavy staysail (doubles as storm jib).

That's what I already have.

My boat is made for higher latitude with modest SA/D - 16.5. But light (under 200 D/L) and long waterline 47 feet). So she's very fast for a cruising boat. To give you an idea, two years ago we beat a Beneteau First in racing trim with membrane sails - in a long tacking battle dead upwind. And we were at the end of a 3000 mile cruise with completely blown out Dacron sails and dirty bottom and a couple of tons of gear on board. It was a delightful, intense afternoon, as the Bene could sail much closer to the wind, which we had to make up for with boat speed.

With this modest SA/D, we rule the waves in 20-25 knots where generic boats are already reefed down and we're not, but we pay for that in light conditions where we're dead in the water with much under 10 knots true and wind behind the beam - just not enough canvas. This is not true, however, with the new sails, if the wind is much ahead of the beam - we climb right up on our apparent wind and can maintain 2/3 true wind speed right down to about 5 knots. This is a major transformation compared to the old sails.

So what I need now is light air sails. I have a lot of experience with kites (from my days racing 420s), but I don't know a single cruiser who ever uses a symmetrical spinnaker at all, even if they have one on board. My Dad had one on his boat, and we only used it like twice in 20 years, and only when I begged him. On a boat the size of mine, it would take serious manpower. So that's off the list.

After much thought, and a lot of advice from people like Evans Starzinger, I decided on a light Code 0. Next year.. .

I have a massive carbon pole off a TP52 which is great for poling out the 120% Yankee, but I will probably have to cut it down for the Code 0, since it would be needed at higher wind angles, than I use it with the yank.

Concerning 5 knots VMG dead upwind - yep , that's a feat for any cruising boat. That's why Cruisers rarely sail when they need to get dead upwind. Making drag is easy; making lift requires correct airfoils and is 100 times more demanding, both on sails, and on sail trimmers. Most people don't bother.

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Old 17-03-2016, 02:18   #93
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

Attached are some kite (& pole) wisdoms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
So what I need now is light air sails. I have a lot of experience with kites (from my days racing 420s), but I don't know a single cruiser who ever uses a symmetrical spinnaker at all, even if they have one on board.
There are plenty of them, right here on this board, not including me.

My Dad had one on his boat, and we only used it like twice in 20 years, and only when I begged him. On a boat the size of mine, it would take serious manpower. So that's off the list. Yeah, pretty much. Unless you've got gobs of experience.

After much thought, and a lot of advice from people like Evans Starzinger, I decided on a light Code 0. Next year.. .

I have a massive carbon pole off a TP52 which is great for poling out the 120% Yankee, but I will probably have to cut it down for the Code 0, since it would be needed at higher wind angles, than I use it with the yank.
You might not want to crop that pole, after you read this, particularly as it relates to getting the luff of a kite out into clearer air. And that a long pole allows you to fly flatter kites (Code 0's included) at deeper wind angles than does a fixed sprit.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2068810

Concerning 5 knots VMG dead upwind - yep , that's a feat for any cruising boat. That's why Cruisers rarely sail when they need to get dead upwind. Making drag is easy; making lift requires correct airfoils and is 100 times more demanding, both on sails, and on sail trimmers. Most people don't bother. Translation: Most people are lazy.

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For your Code 0, you can always pick up/rig up, a short, fixed sprit from your bow. If, for whatever reason, you don't want to use your spinnaker pole. Though in the long run, the latter may serve you better.
The info's in the link.
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Old 17-03-2016, 06:22   #94
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Attached are some kite (& pole) wisdoms.



For your Code 0, you can always pick up/rig up, a short, fixed sprit from your bow. If, for whatever reason, you don't want to use your spinnaker pole. Though in the long run, the latter may serve you better.
The info's in the link.
I never heard that a sprit is a substitute for a pole. Interesting. On my boat, the sprit is essential in any case, and the reason why I haven't done the Code 0 yet is because the sprit installation is a rather involved project.

Another problem is how to store it. I don't want the windage upwind (that's also why I don't like Solent rigs). I guess I'll need one of those torque rope furlers I can take down.

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Old 17-03-2016, 06:49   #95
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

Was the original question ever answered to agreement?
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Old 17-03-2016, 07:08   #96
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

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Was the original question ever answered to agreement?
I don't think so, and I don't think we asked the question that would be the most important, and that is, is prop anti-fouling electrically conductive?
Cause if it is, then it may not have much of an effect, but if it is not conductive, if is is an insulator, then logically it should reduce prop anode wasting.

But, I think Dockhead does not have a problem with his boat, I believe based on my experience that the Autoprop is compared to it's anode size, a big chunk of bronze, and a larger anode than stock, will last longer, and that there is no aerodynamic effect of the stock anode, it's shaped they way it is, because it looks good that way.
Just as a basis of comparison, I fly turbine aircraft nearly weekly with the spinner off the propeller so I can dial in the flat pitch setting, and there is zero performance difference with or without that nice aerodynamic bullet shaped spinner installed or removed, but it sure is ugly without it.
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Old 17-03-2016, 07:17   #97
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

You can find anything on the internet, I can prove Aliens built the pyramids for example, but it does seem the consensus is painting does help. I cut and pasted this while searching for the effects of "over zincing"

Good electrical continuity is essential between the zinc and the metal it is protecting. You cannot hang a zinc anode over the side on a string and expect it to do any good. Clean, tight, metal to metal contact is best; or provide a low resistance connection with a wire. Since zincs are frequently replaced while a boat is hanging in the slings for survey it is easy for the surveyor to check the quality of the new electrical connection with a multimeter set to the ohms scale. Simply place one probe on the zinc and the other on the metal that the zinc is attached to. The reading should be less than one ohm. Never paint a zinc anode as its exposed surface area is key to its effectiveness. Painting the metal that the zinc is protecting, however, can be beneficial in so far as it reduces its exposed surface area.

For further reading on this subject refer to ABYC E-2 and Everett Collier's, The Boatowner's Guide To Corrosion.
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Old 17-03-2016, 12:22   #98
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

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Hey Rustic, sorry, had to go do some laundry.

When I read your post mentioning "AF" wire it stumped me. Which of course bugged me since having a reasonably good grasp of electrical gadgets. My simple Garmin 441s has only a hot and ground, tranducer, plus the tiny wires for DSC to the vhf.

What plotter do you have? For the life of me I can't cipher what AF stands for. Bugs me.

Edit,.... oh, and the NMEA data wires. If it is that then there is a data negative wire, which definitely doesn't go to ground. Rather at least not the earth ground.
Sorry Four Winds, ive been a bit buzy at work. Ill scan the page of the manual. But i think your on the right track with the Data black wire. I have an 'a' series. If the data black wire doesnt go to earth/ ground, where does it go to, because i dont have any other options?
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Old 17-03-2016, 18:28   #99
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

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I don't think so, and I don't think we asked the question that would be the most important, and that is, is prop anti-fouling electrically conductive?
Cause if it is, then it may not have much of an effect, but if it is not conductive, if is is an insulator, then logically it should reduce prop anode wasting.

.
I'll answer the original question then:

Last year I think installed my zinc on my Flex-O-Fold before I sprayed the prop with anti-foul. But I taped the shaft before I sprayed it and installed the zincs afterward on the bare shaft.

The prop zinc didn't waste away at all and the shaft zincs did the "normal" amount. (the prop zinc normally wastes more as it is just smaller)

So yes the prop anti-foul will effect the zincs, if you cover the zinc with it.
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Old 17-03-2016, 23:22   #100
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

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I'll answer the original question then:

Last year I think installed my zinc on my Flex-O-Fold before I sprayed the prop with anti-foul. But I taped the shaft before I sprayed it and installed the zincs afterward on the bare shaft.

The prop zinc didn't waste away at all and the shaft zincs did the "normal" amount. (the prop zinc normally wastes more as it is just smaller)

So yes the prop anti-foul will effect the zincs, if you cover the zinc with it.
Whether you can prevent your anode from working by antifouling the anode, is not too mysterious, I guess Yes, you can

The question was whether antifouling through prop (not the anode) would have much effect, and whether people do it.

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Old 17-03-2016, 23:44   #101
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

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Sorry Four Winds, ive been a bit buzy at work. Ill scan the page of the manual. But i think your on the right track with the Data black wire. I have an 'a' series. If the data black wire doesnt go to earth/ ground, where does it go to, because i dont have any other options?
Apologies to Dockhead for mucking about in his thread.

Rustic, an "a" series, what, Garmin? You're killin' me, :-).

But the data ground is what the old tech in me would call a signal ground back in my countermeasures days. It's part of the circuit path that allows all the little ones and zeros run around the data network. Which, after all, requires current paths as well. It's just that these paths are isolated from power circuits, and contained within the digital bits and bobs only. Low current stuff.

Tell me the model of your plotter and maybe I can give you a solid answer. But I think these wires would only connect between the associated devices.
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Old 18-03-2016, 00:05   #102
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

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Apologies to Dockhead for mucking about in his thread. . . .
For good order -- it's not "my" thread. Just because you start a thread, doesn't mean you own it.

Thread drift (within reason) is just part of the natural flow of conversation -- just like in real life. Nothing whatsoever wrong with it.

Muck away
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Old 18-03-2016, 00:18   #103
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

Copy, thanks.
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Old 18-03-2016, 00:20   #104
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

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. . .

But the data ground is what the old tech in me would call a signal ground back in my countermeasures days. It's part of the circuit path that allows all the little ones and zeros run around the data network. Which, after all, requires current paths as well. It's just that these paths are isolated from power circuits, and contained within the digital bits and bobs only. Low current stuff.

Tell me the model of your plotter and maybe I can give you a solid answer. But I think these wires would only connect between the associated devices.
The negative wire of an RS422 pair is actually not a ground at all of any kind. It's half of a signal pair. From NMEA0183 v2.0, when the standard went from RS-232 to RS422, you must not interconnect the negative wires between devices not connected to each other -- there is no common ground.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-422
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Old 18-03-2016, 00:56   #105
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Re: Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

Fair enough, I agree.

Nor was the signal ground actually a ground in the equipment I worked on decades ago. Where a digitally controlled radar countermeasure transmitter's "computer" was housed in several seperate black boxes, because of space and lack of miniaturization. Rather it was a simply a completed path for data flow.

A signal pair, or in some cases 64 pairs, sometimes running the full length of the aircraft.
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