Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-10-2013, 11:14   #16
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijiraq View Post
I am thinking to do some tests. There is an old decrepit glassed wood cape islander here that is basically soil in many places. I am going to cut out a piece of her and try to impregnated the rot using a cycloaliphatic epoxy thinned with 50-80% xylene. I know people are going to think i am nuts to thin it that much, but I think those epoxies will (over the course of say 5 days to 3 weeks) cure hard as rock once the xylene is gone. Thus the need to heat the area effectively. I will test using battery blankets, I want at least 110F I think. I know xylene will take forever to evap but I am going to try, at least see the result. If thinned enough, and drilled say 3" centers or so using the grease gun or similar pressure method and given enough time, I don't see how this couldn't be effective if refined adequately. As far as bulkheads, yes drilling small holes has brought me grief before, when i found rot in the middle that didn't show, but that is another can of worms ill open later if i have to...

This is exactly what CPES/Smiths is. Exactly.
__________________

__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 12:10   #17
Registered User
 
ijiraq's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Now in Ontario-io!
Boat: Custom, Ingrid ketch/cutter, 39.5 LOD
Posts: 59
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

and your takes on the CPES/Smiths system?
__________________

__________________
ijiraq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 13:07   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Alameda, CA
Boat: C&C Newport 41
Posts: 586
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

how big is the boat? how much square footage do you have on the deck?

there is no doubt that this job sucks. by which i mean to say... re-coring a deck sucks.

i re-cored about 100 sq ft in 50 hours and spent another 60 hours filling and fairing in the interest in making it 'perfect' before deciding that i may never get all of the pin holes out and decided to put down synthetic teak and be done with the endless filling and fairing.

took 5 gallons of laminating resin ($250), a few 300 bucks in balsa (because foam wasnt avail when i was ready and i didnt want to wait), i had the 3/4" marine ply so i didnt need to buy a sheet for the nose (windlass & bow roller), $75 in cloth, $100 in 406, 407 and 410 and idk what in misc supplies (grinder pads, sand paper, brushes and rollers, lacquer thinner etc.)

this years and thousands noise is just noise... sure if you are working on a 90' monster or have to remove a teak deck before you can even start re-coring the deck the level of effort is magnified 10 fold but for a 40-50 footer... easy (miserable) breezy (sucky).

roll up those sleeve and get her done.

-s
__________________
ssanzone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 13:08   #19
Registered User
 
HansSolo's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Somewhere in the Caribbean
Boat: Hans Christian 41T
Posts: 165
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by ijiraq View Post
did you thin the epoxy when you did this? if so to what extent?
I didn't do this, it was done by the previous owner. According to him he thinned the epoxy as much as the manufacture recommended using west system.

Here is a link from west system about thinning epoxy thinning-west-system-epoxy/
__________________
Yu & Frank
http://sv-moitessier.blogspot.com
HansSolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 18:22   #20
Registered User
 
ijiraq's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Now in Ontario-io!
Boat: Custom, Ingrid ketch/cutter, 39.5 LOD
Posts: 59
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

well i have messed with this stuff before, and while I could invest 30k and turn that boat for at least double that in a week, if i brought her to Toronto Harbor... I am scared off I think. The overall quality control on those so called lux yachts i think might be questionable... I don't actually plan on reselling anytime in the next few years... I am gonna go with my gut and nice and safe and snug with the custom Atkin/Ingrid 39. At least I know I can sail her to wind in a gale without wincing... And cement is so easy to care for, from what I know of this vessel she is a real good layup... Enjoy your glass folks
__________________
ijiraq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 20:48   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Carolina
Boat: 44 footer
Posts: 923
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

There is an Atkins for sale in the classifieds section right now for 15k that looks pretty sharp, Kim R is the poster.

I know next to nothing about concrete boats, other than this one doesn't look like it... Which counts for a lot in my book. A lot of ferrocement boats have shapes that wood won't make, steel won't bend and a fiberglass guy couldn't do with a long board sander...

Zach
__________________
Zach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 21:05   #22
Registered User
 
ijiraq's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Now in Ontario-io!
Boat: Custom, Ingrid ketch/cutter, 39.5 LOD
Posts: 59
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

Well Wadda coincidence!
__________________
ijiraq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 21:22   #23
Registered User
 
ijiraq's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Now in Ontario-io!
Boat: Custom, Ingrid ketch/cutter, 39.5 LOD
Posts: 59
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

Since I was a kid reading salty stories I always knew instinctively what a sea kindly shape was. That was the shape I loved like a woman's curves first time I sailed one, after racing Lake Ontario in a shark 22, I was ruined for other boats. Lol you wouldn't believe how dangerous it was below in my little swing keel balboa hoveto. Trying to lay flat out as low as possible to avoid getting thrown and slammed into the sise of the cabin, middle of the gulf of st Lawrence in a 3 day gale, a foot of water sloshing around in the cabin and I just peed in my floater suit again... Thank gosh for lotsa battery power for the tiller pilot... I think a boat like that might be a different kinda game
__________________
ijiraq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 21:39   #24
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

From WEST Systems guide on thinning epoxy...
WEST SYSTEM - Projects - Thinning WEST SYSTEM epoxy

-Thinning epoxy with solvent causes enough loss of strength that we (and most other reputable epoxy formulators) cannot recommend using it as a structural adhesive.

-Adding a volatile solvent extends the pot life and cure time of epoxy and jeopardizes the reliability and predictability of cure.

-The addition of more than 5% solvent results in an excessively flexible cured material.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 21:49   #25
Registered User
 
CharlieCobra's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PNW
Boat: Knutson K-35 Yawl "Oh Joy" - Mariner 31 Ketch "Kahagon" - K-40 "Seasmoke" - 30' Sloop "Baccus"
Posts: 1,290
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by S/V_Surya View Post
Charlie I recall you were using a method to inject epoxy into soft decking with a grease gun. What happened to that?
Two years later and no problems at all. I used Silvertip because of it's low viscosity.
__________________
CharlieCobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-10-2013, 22:12   #26
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
From WEST Systems guide on thinning epoxy...
WEST SYSTEM - Projects - Thinning WEST SYSTEM epoxy

-Thinning epoxy with solvent causes enough loss of strength that we (and most other reputable epoxy formulators) cannot recommend using it as a structural adhesive.

-Adding a volatile solvent extends the pot life and cure time of epoxy and jeopardizes the reliability and predictability of cure.

-The addition of more than 5% solvent results in an excessively flexible cured material.


This is classic CYA. When actual WEST reps come to our boatyard, they have no problem with using their resin thinned down in a classic split coat (about 10% max). You just use Slow or Tropical hardener and the solvent all evaporates long before the resin even starts to cure. Sure if you thin Fast WEST on a hot day with acetone, you might have problems. Just basic common sense will avoid this though. Why you would ever consider thinning a resin you are about to use for a structural adhesive I can't imagine. Thinned epoxy is used for sealer coats on wood. They know this.

Now if we were talking thinning epoxy to reduce viscosity for laminating, that's a different matter. That's what laminating resin is for, and reducing is a mistake in that case.
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2013, 13:14   #27
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

Minaret,

This thread was about someone using thinned epoxy with the idea of using capillary action to fix delamination issues. Thus a structual application.

Using thinned epoxy for wood sealing is debatable (and I won't do it) since thinning it reduced the waterproof ness of the epoxy, but you are right it at least is an arguable practice.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2013, 14:08   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Boat: Custom cutter, 42'
Posts: 378
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

There's nothing like a little direct personal experience to increase reality on a subject. So, take a bit of epoxy, thin it as you describe and pour it into a can to cure. Make the sample at least 1/2" thick because your application will not allow for the evaporation of solvents that Minaret describes.

The result will be gel like, soft and weak. Actually do this, it is far better to learn with an experiment than to learn from a major failed project.
__________________
Pauls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2013, 16:41   #29
Resin Head
 
minaret's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle WA
Boat: Nauticat
Posts: 7,199
Images: 52
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Minaret,

This thread was about someone using thinned epoxy with the idea of using capillary action to fix delamination issues. Thus a structual application.

Using thinned epoxy for wood sealing is debatable (and I won't do it) since thinning it reduced the waterproof ness of the epoxy, but you are right it at least is an arguable practice.


Wow, you are indeed an attorney! That is what this thread was about, and you'll note that I had suggested never ever doing that. I only took exception to your blanket statement that its never OK to thin epoxy under any circumstances.

Don't know why the "waterproofness" of a sealer coat matters, as the whole point is to chemically bond build up coats of neat epoxy to the sealer coat. This will provide the barrier. None of the many pros I know find this "arguable".
__________________
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,

Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
minaret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-2013, 11:48   #30
Registered User
 
ijiraq's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Now in Ontario-io!
Boat: Custom, Ingrid ketch/cutter, 39.5 LOD
Posts: 59
Re: Delamination/Penetrating Expoxy/Purchase dilemma

I just bought the Ingrid instead... Lovely safe lil big boat!
__________________

__________________
ijiraq is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
delamination, purchase

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:39.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.