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Old 25-01-2012, 21:01   #31
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Re: Dangerous propane systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post

Hell, with propane you NEED electricity to run your solenoid.
No electricity required!

It is not required to have an electric solenoid valve. What is required is to be able to shut off the fuel at the supply, it can be manual valve presumably controlled from the vicinity of the stove via a linkage or cable in most cases. Also says if you can reach the tank valve, no other shutoff required at all.

John

http://www.abycinc.org/committees/A-01.pdf

A-1.7.3 A readily accessible manual or electrically
operated (e.g., solenoid) shut-off valve shall be installed in
the low or high-pressure line at the fuel supply. See the
requirements in A-1.7.6.1 for valve location requirements.
A-1.7.3.1 The valve(s) or its control must be operable
from the vicinity of the appliance(s) in the event of a fire at
any appliance(s). If the cylinder shut-off valve is readily
accessible from the vicinity of the appliance, the shut-off
valve on the supply line is not required.
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Old 25-01-2012, 21:46   #32
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Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Interesting. Would take me about three seconds to jump out of the galley and into the cockpit and shut off the propane.
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Old 25-01-2012, 22:02   #33
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Re: Dangerous propane systems

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Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
There are mechanical compression type fittings for gas services for use with a proper fitted hose. I'm not going to go into reading all the regs, but would think this would be acceptable (why would a boat be different from any other properly assembled industrial gas fitting/system). Just that using a tee with a hose clamp isn't acceptable like in some of the photos.
Compression fittings are not allowed on commercial vessels because they are not secure enough They must be flared fittings. Compression is not referring to JIC fittings.
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Old 28-01-2012, 21:09   #34
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Re: Dangerous propane systems

[QUOTE=hpeer;870742]Yup, I did. But if you have a link I would like to read it.


But................
One of the complaints of kero stoves is you have to HEAT THE BLOODY KERO in order to get it to burn effectively. I have heard folks here claim that they have seen diesel used to smother fires. Perhaps someone here can expand upon that statement for I have no first hand knowledge. However I have been told by several professionals it is OK to drill into my steel diesel tank, just use some drilling oil. I'll listen to comments on that also.

Both kero and diesel are relatively benign and stable. Sure you can do stupid things and cause a fire. But compared to propane they are relatively safe and simple. Hell, with propane you NEED electricity to run your solenoid.

You can perform the standard college demo on this. Pour some diesel in a small container. Light a match and drop it in. Might as well be water. As long as the diesel is well below the flash point. Pretty understadable explaination here Flash point - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Diesel has a flash point above 140 F while gasoline has a flash point of minus 45 F. Diesel is combustable while not being highly volitile at normal temperatures. If you put a rag (wick) into the fuel it lights easily and burns like a candle. Once the pool of diesel is hot enough the entire pool will flame. Diesel behaves more like grain dust. We don't think of wheat flour as explosive but if it is well dispersed in air and a spark is applied it is impressive. With diesel, we atomize it in air that has been compressed about 45 times. Highly compressed air is hot enough for the atomized diesel to auto-ignite. The better the atomization, the better the boom.

Propane is already a gas at standard temperature and pressure so it readily mixes with air and makes explosive mixtures. I treat all volitile and gaseous fuels with equal respect and prefer to keep them out or off the boat whenever possible. Murphy tells me that given enough time, what ever can go wrong will go wrong. This said, most of us accept some risk here so we can eat and power our dinghys.
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Old 28-01-2012, 21:31   #35
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Re: Dangerous propane systems

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
Compression fittings are not allowed on commercial vessels because they are not secure enough They must be flared fittings. Compression is not referring to JIC fittings.

David is correct on this. Compression ferrel fittings should not be on any system subject to movement. JIC and Flair are the same and are also often referred to as 37 degree flair fittings. You can buy these fittings in many hardware stores. They are very common. You can also buy a flairing tool that will make you an expert in a very short time. Here is the entire kit for flairing 3/16 to 5/8 soft copper tube. Use the tube cutter and trimmer to make neat, proper tube ends. Slide the nut over the tube, clamp the tube into the appropriate opening in the clamp. Slip the flairing mandrel (upper left) over the clamped tube end and screw the mandrel into the tube. You might want a tube bender to make perfect bends but its not usually necessary.

One other thing to watch for is the material. Copper and red brass is good. Many hardware store fittings are yellow brass and contain a lot of zinc. Expose to salt atmosphere and the zinc disapears. That little compression ferrel on compression fittings is usually hard brass. One other reason they are no good.
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Old 29-01-2012, 06:52   #36
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Re: Dangerous propane systems

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
One other thing to watch for is the material. Copper and red brass is good. Many hardware store fittings are yellow brass and contain a lot of zinc. Expose to salt atmosphere and the zinc disapears.

Unless your propane system is located below water dezincification of yellow brass is not going to happen from exposure to salt air....
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Old 29-01-2012, 10:05   #37
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Re: Dangerous propane systems

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Unless your propane system is located below water dezincification of yellow brass is not going to happen from exposure to salt air....

Generally correct, however, you will find the specifications for fuel systems in the USCG (it was darn hard to find!) do discuss this and yellow brass is not permitted for gasoline and diesel. I didn't look up propane. I think you are required to make complete, un-spliced runs so there are no hidden tube joints. I had several Home Depot yellow brass water valves in our raw water system left over from the previous owner. I tried to spin one and pulled the handle and ball out of the valve body. Groco marine valves and some others are red brass. I just don't think its worth pushing fate to use yellow brass.
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Old 29-01-2012, 10:41   #38
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Re: Dangerous propane systems

If you look in the beginning of each sub part of the CFRs it will say what kinds of vessels that part applies to.

Title 33 subpart 183 basically refers to recreational boats. There is nothing in it about propane installations or diesel installations. Gasoline installations are thoroughly covered.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
Generally correct, however, you will find the specifications for fuel systems in the USCG (it was darn hard to find!) do discuss this and yellow brass is not permitted for gasoline and diesel. I didn't look up propane. I think you are required to make complete, un-spliced runs so there are no hidden tube joints. I had several Home Depot yellow brass water valves in our raw water system left over from the previous owner. I tried to spin one and pulled the handle and ball out of the valve body. Groco marine valves and some others are red brass. I just don't think its worth pushing fate to use yellow brass.
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Old 29-01-2012, 11:28   #39
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Re: Dangerous propane systems

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
Generally correct, however, you will find the specifications for fuel systems in the USCG (it was darn hard to find!) do discuss this and yellow brass is not permitted for gasoline and diesel.
Yes darn hard to find and perhaps you can link us to it? I have never seen any mention of this. The only stipulations in ABYC H-33 Diesel Fuel Systems or H-24 Gasoline Fuel Systems are:

24.18.1.6 Copper base alloy components shall be separated from contact with aluminum tanks or fitting plates by means of a galvanic barrier such as 300 series stainless steel.


Eliminating yellow brass puts nearly every boat on the water in violation as Moeller, Tempo, Racor, Yamaha, Mercury, OMC etc. etc. and many others all supply yellow brass fuel fittings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
I didn't look up propane. I think you are required to make complete, un-spliced runs so there are no hidden tube joints.
That is correct and you also need to use "long nut" flared fittings and the proper flare tool. The short nut flare fitting normally uses in refrigeration is prohibited. No prohibitions against yellow brass

Also nearly every single ABYC/UL/NFPA LPG rubber hose I have ever seen is terminated with yellow brass end fittings. Trident, Gas Systems Inc. and many others sell yellow brass fuel & LPG fittings. Many "marine" LPG solenoids have yellow brass bodies/valves, pressure regulator assemblies are made up with yellow brass fittings, stove and heater connections are made up of yellow brass. T-handles and drains, among other parts on Racor 500 series filters, are also yellow brass... Even the propane tank shut off valves threaded into the propane tank are yellow brass.... You're going to have a very, very hard time finding a "red brass" LPG tank valve or t-handle for a Racor 500, 900 or 1000 series. Red brass fittings are quite rare and limited in what is available.

Other than isolating copper based alloy's from an aluminum tank there is no ban of yellow brass that I have ever seen under ABYC or the CFR. If there is I'd love to see a link to it so I can see the context...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
I had several Home Depot yellow brass water valves in our raw water system left over from the previous owner. I tried to spin one and pulled the handle and ball out of the valve body. Groco marine valves and some others are red brass. I just don't think its worth pushing fate to use yellow brass.
Groco's bodies are 85-5-5-5 bronze and the balls are either chrome plated red brass, or SS..

Yellow brass should ideally be avoided in a raw water system as it can do exactly as you found because it is in an electrolyte. If the engine zinc wears away or is non-existent the yellow brass valve zinc goes next.. Happens to props & bronze shafts too. With seacocks dezincification is much rarer because a good quality seacock, most in teh US are made with 85-5-5-5 bronze and will have less than 5% zinc content. Many props are manganese bronze which has a high zinc content.

I have boats I work on that are 45+ years old and I have never seen a brass fitting in a fuel system suffer from dezincification. Conversely I have seen six moth old yellow brass Home Depot valves used below water that are already suffering dezincification...

I often take old brass fittings fuel fittings to my brass wire wheel in the shop and they clean up like new with no corrosion or any signs of dezincification. Just cleaned some up last week that were over 25 years old from a production sailboat..
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Old 29-01-2012, 11:47   #40
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Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
I just posted Safe Boat Propane Installations on my website with lots of photos of the most incredible stupidity. Thought you guys might find it entertaining.
I think that the example of side loaded locker on a mass production boat (as given here: http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/PHOTO...%20sail%20.jpg ) is not violating any safety requirements, except maybe the top loading recommendation.

Certainly it allows for easy locker ventilation (a big plus) and any escaping LPG is draining overboard as these boats have aft boarding platforms with a wide slit between the platform (when closed) and cockpit floor. This space acts primarily as a cockpit drain, but drains any LPG spill directly overboard too.
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Old 29-01-2012, 11:49   #41
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Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

1999 CFR Title 33, Volume 2

Here is the link to the government site where fuel systems is discussed. Note that most of this is really aimed at commercial and inspected vessels. Since we will be circumnavigating and liviving aboard we are quite picky about what might bite us later. Scroll down to about 183.510 and below to read more than you will ever want to know about it. Unfortunately, they use thousands of words and don't say what you need to know. If you print this and circle issues of interest you will also find some items in conflict. I quizzed some of the local CG inspectors, officers and GC auxillary about my fuel systems looking for constructive assistance. Big dead end.
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Old 29-01-2012, 11:55   #42
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Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

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Originally Posted by mrm View Post
I think that the example of side loaded locker on a mass production boat (as given here: http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/PHOTO...%20sail%20.jpg ) is not violating any safety requirements, except maybe the top loading recommendation.

Certainly it allows for easy locker ventilation (a big plus) and any escaping LPG is draining overboard as these boats have aft boarding platforms with a wide slit between the platform (when closed) and cockpit floor. This space acts primarily as a cockpit drain, but drains any LPG spill directly overboard too.

Photos make me cringe!.
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Old 29-01-2012, 12:05   #43
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Re: Dangerous propane systems

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Excerpted from:
ABYC A-1 MARINE LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS (LPG) SYSTEMS
... A-1.8.1 Lockers used to contain LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment and safety devices shall be designed to minimize the likelihood of use as a gear storage locker and shall be,
A-1.8.1.1 vapor tight to the hull interior, and
A-1.8.1.2 located above the waterline, and
A-1.8.1.3 constructed of, or lined with, corrosion resistant materials, and
A-1.8.1.4 shall open only from the top with
A-1.8.1.5 a gasketed cover that shall latch tightly, and
A-1.8.1.6 shall be capable of being quickly and conveniently opened without tools. ...

All YES!
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Old 29-01-2012, 12:28   #44
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Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
1999 CFR Title 33, Volume 2

Here is the link to the government site where fuel systems is discussed. Note that most of this is really aimed at commercial and inspected vessels. Since we will be circumnavigating and liviving aboard we are quite picky about what might bite us later. Scroll down to about 183.510 and below to read more than you will ever want to know about it. Unfortunately, they use thousands of words and don't say what you need to know. If you print this and circle issues of interest you will also find some items in conflict. I quizzed some of the local CG inspectors, officers and GC auxillary about my fuel systems looking for constructive assistance. Big dead end.
I am familiar with that, and as I mentioned earlier there is no mention of yellow brass being prohibited in fuel systems. ABYC H-33 and H-24 are nearly identical to the fuel portion of CFR 33 only go further in some instances..
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Old 29-01-2012, 12:38   #45
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Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Repeat of post #38

Sub part J, all of the 183.5xx, applicability is found in 183.501. Do you have gasoline engines in your boat? If no, then this sub part does not apply to you. There is no section on diesels.

183.501 Applicability.
(a) This subpart applies to all boats
that have gasoline engines, except outboard engines, for electrical generation, mechanical power, or propulsion.



Part 183 is for recreational vessels.

definitions for for part 183 found at 183.3

Boat means any vessel—

(1) Manufactured or used primarily for noncommercial use;

(2) Leased, rented, or chartered to another for the latter's noncommercial use; or

(3) Operated as an uninspected passenger vessel subject to the requirements of 46 CFR chapter I, subchapter C.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
1999 CFR Title 33, Volume 2

Here is the link to the government site where fuel systems is discussed. Note that most of this is really aimed at commercial and inspected vessels. Since we will be circumnavigating and liviving aboard we are quite picky about what might bite us later. Scroll down to about 183.510 and below to read more than you will ever want to know about it. Unfortunately, they use thousands of words and don't say what you need to know. If you print this and circle issues of interest you will also find some items in conflict. I quizzed some of the local CG inspectors, officers and GC auxillary about my fuel systems looking for constructive assistance. Big dead end.
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