Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-01-2012, 16:00   #16
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,337
Re: Dangerous propane systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
Makes me like my kero solution even more!

I guess you missed the kero stove fire thread.....

Anyway, a proper installation is not difficult. It's is really just common sense, once the principles are clear. But people fight common sense.

Would you do any less if it were your house? Would you have the gas regulator in the kitchen, or would it be beside the house? Would you use lame tubing or steel pipe? Would you put an unventilated heater in a sealed room?
__________________

__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 16:19   #17
Registered User
 
nwdiver's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Vancouver, BC
Boat: C&C Landfall 38
Posts: 358
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Some of the older Canadian made boats were setup for CNG which is lighter than air, so will not pool, then people converted them to propane without taking the weight of the gas into account in redesigning the storage and handling, thus the side loading lockers without seals on the Whidbey, Bayfield and Nonsuch boats.
__________________

__________________
nwdiver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 16:56   #18
Registered User
 
Greg S's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 328
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Good info, thanks Wallace.
__________________
Greg S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 17:19   #19
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Your diagram is spot on to our installation except that we also a manual shut-off valve in the cabin where the line connects to the stove. (above captain's shoulder inside the cabinet.) We have an electric valve switch in the galley to operate the solenoid. (CABINET FACE LOWR RIGHT).

Tanks are in a sealed locker of minimum volume. The Propane locker is inside of the lazerette. All penetrations are sealed with gunk. In order to keep cool, there is insulation on strategic sides. The door is off in the photo but has a tight gasket seal with a vent to the side of the hull.

One thing you don't note is that HORIZONTAL tanks are exempt from the new valve overfill regulations. We will need new valves and hydrotest I think but will wait for the tanks to empty. I understand the new valves will also fit our old hose ends. Probably time to change out that rusty solenoid.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF1278.jpg
Views:	236
Size:	414.9 KB
ID:	36411   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF1281.jpg
Views:	258
Size:	411.0 KB
ID:	36412  

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCF0556.jpg
Views:	199
Size:	411.5 KB
ID:	36413  
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 18:07   #20
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Good job of pulling all the info into one place and pictures of bad installs.

If I understand your text and picture correctly though, you have the pressure gauge on the wrong side of the regulator.

John
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 18:23   #21
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Re: Dangerous propane systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by unbusted67 View Post
I just recently did a stove and propane system install on my boat as per ABYC specs. I was amazed at how simple and logical it made everything to follow these guidelines. I will do everything ABYC from now on. Most of it makes good sense.
ABYC generally knows what's going on.

I hate to admit it but I don't have a shut off solenoid or a fume detector. The tank is sitting overboard, and there's a T to a BBQ which is also hanging off the stern. In five years it hasn't been a problem, but it's on the list of things to do this next year. A lot more travel will bang things around, cause more chafe, and f with stuff in general.

Agreed through that doing it the ABYC route is generally for the best, especially if you're messing with something that can burn or sink the boat.
__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 19:36   #22
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 4,324
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
Your diagram is spot on to our installation except that we also a manual shut-off valve in the cabin where the line connects to the stove. (above captain's shoulder inside the cabinet.) We have an electric valve switch in the galley to operate the solenoid. (CABINET FACE LOWR RIGHT).

Tanks are in a sealed locker of minimum volume. The Propane locker is inside of the lazerette. All penetrations are sealed with gunk. In order to keep cool, there is insulation on strategic sides. The door is off in the photo but has a tight gasket seal with a vent to the side of the hull.

One thing you don't note is that HORIZONTAL tanks are exempt from the new valve overfill regulations. We will need new valves and hydrotest I think but will wait for the tanks to empty. I understand the new valves will also fit our old hose ends. Probably time to change out that rusty solenoid.
I'm sure that you now know the two or maybe three ABYC rules that your installation fails to meet....
__________________
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 20:26   #23
Registered User
 
ShipShape's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 267
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

ABYC standards are RECOMMENDATIONS, not requirements. ABYC standards are advisory only and their use is entirely voluntary.

NFPA standards for LPG and CNG systems ARE requirements - they are similar to the ABYC recommendations.

There is no ABYC standard recommending that LPG (propane) tanks be kept in lockers.

The NFPA standards specifically state that LPG and CNG containers are not required to be installed in a dedicated locker (other safety requirements must be met).

The DOT and ASME and US Coast Guard do have regulations (requirements) for propane tanks themselves, including their transportation.

ABYC = American Boat and Yacht Council
ASME = American Society of Mechanical Engineers
DOT = Department of Transportation
NFPA = National Fire Protection Association

These are United States organizations - your country may or may not subscribe to USA recommendations and requirements.
__________________
ShipShape is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 20:39   #24
Marine Service Provider
 
Maine Sail's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
Boat: CS-36T - Cupecoy
Posts: 3,060
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShipShape View Post
ABYC standards are RECOMMENDATIONS, not requirements. ABYC standards are advisory only and their use is entirely voluntary.
Yep and if you blow up your boat and kill someone you can also bet that there will be lawyers there using the ABYC as the gold safety standard for marine applications in the US and wondering and asking why you chose to ignore it. ABYC standards are used in court cases..

Also when you have an insurance survey they are going by surveyor recommendations. I got a call last fall from a guy who was upset that his boat failed an insurance survey and they wanted his water heater "decommissioned" before re-issuing coverage. He was really mad at the surveyor. He wanted me to write a letter stating that his water heater was safe "because he'd been using it that way for 5 years" it was a Paloma on demand unit that does not meet current safety standards. I told him I was in complete agreement with his surveyor and he then got pissed at me.

I asked him what he thought was fair for me to do, lie about the safety of his system, or be honest with him? I asked him what would happen if it blew up and killed someone and my arse get hauled into court for signing off that an unsafe system was "safe"? I politely explained that in this litigious society that myself, the surveyor and his insurance company are simply following "acceptable" safety standards.

I simply emailed him the excerpts from ABYC A-1 pertaining to his situation, which the surveyor had not done, and he quickly agreed that perhaps his insurance company was right to be in agreement with the surveyor who was in agreement with ABYC about the safety of his system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ShipShape View Post
There is no ABYC standard recommending that LPG (propane) tanks be kept in lockers.

Yes there is, if the tank can not vent directly overboard, as it can not on many sail and power boats. It's all covered in ABYC A-1:


From ABYC A-1:

"1.7.6.1 LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment, and safety devices shall be readily accessible, secured for sea conditions, and protected from the weather and against mechanical damage, and shall be:

1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly overboard, or

1.7.6.1.2 if the escaping vapors will not flow directly overboard, the cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated locker meeting the requirements of A-1.8.

1.8 LPG LOCKERS

1.8.1 Lockers used to contain LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating equipment and safety devices shall be designed to minimize the likelihood of use as a gear storage locker and shall be,

1.8.1.1 vapor tight to the hull interior, and

1.8.1.2 located above the waterline, and

1.8.1.3 constructed of, or lined with, corrosion resistant materials, and

1.8.1.4 shall open only from the top with

1.8.1.5 a gasketed cover that shall latch tightly, and

1.8.1.6 shall be capable of being quickly and conveniently opened without tools.

1.8.2 Installation

1.8.2.1 LPG lockers shall be installed so that the locker opens only directly to the outside atmosphere, and

1.8.2.2 If a LPG locker is installed inside a boat locker, the LPG locker shall be located as high and as close to the boat locker’s opening as possible in order to comply with A-1.8.2.1.

1.8.3 When means of access to the LPG equipment locker or housing is open, the cylinder valves shall be capable of being conveniently and quickly operated, and the system pressure gauge dials shall be fully visible.

1.8.4 Lockers shall be vented at the bottom by a dedicated vent, with a minimum diameter of any component in the vent system that shall be not less than 1/2 inch (12.5 mm) inside diameter.

1.8.5 Locker vents shall be led outboard, without pockets, through the hull to a point lower than the locker bottom and above the waterline with the boat in the static floating position."
__________________
Marine How To Articles
Maine Sail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 20:41   #25
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

You're partly right. Looks like there is a requirement for a locker if your tank is not mounted someplace like aft of the stern if you are shooting for following the ABYC standards.

From: http://www.abycinc.org/committees/A-01.pdf

A-1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the
exterior of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly
overboard, or,
A-1.7.6.1.2 if the escaping vapors will not flow directly
overboard, the cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated
locker meeting the requirements of A 18




I thought NFPA was a similar organization to ABYC. Their standards are only law where the laws refer to them. CFRs have references to both NFPA and ABYC in specific instances.

John

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShipShape View Post
ABYC standards are RECOMMENDATIONS, not requirements. ABYC standards are advisory only and their use is entirely voluntary.

NFPA standards for LPG and CNG systems ARE requirements - they are similar to the ABYC recommendations.

There is no ABYC standard recommending that LPG (propane) tanks be kept in lockers.

The NFPA standards specifically state that LPG and CNG containers are not required to be installed in a dedicated locker (other safety requirements must be met).

The DOT and ASME and US Coast Guard do have regulations (requirements) for propane tanks themselves, including their transportation.

ABYC = American Boat and Yacht Council
ASME = American Society of Mechanical Engineers
DOT = Department of Transportation
NFPA = National Fire Protection Association

These are United States organizations - your country may or may not subscribe to USA recommendations and requirements.
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-01-2012, 21:54   #26
Registered User
 
Ironhorse74's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Vancouver Washington
Boat: Ed Monk designed 34' Sloop Second Wind
Posts: 400
Images: 1
Re: Dangerous propane systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Lucas View Post
There are mechanical compression type fittings for gas services for use with a proper fitted hose. I'm not going to go into reading all the regs, but would think this would be acceptable (why would a boat be different from any other properly assembled industrial gas fitting/system). Just that using a tee with a hose clamp isn't acceptable like in some of the photos.
As many loose compression fittings as I see from shipping an appliance halfway across the country. I would stay away from those on boats. Tapered pipe fitting would be my first choice.
__________________
Ironhorse74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2012, 05:11   #27
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShipShape View Post
ABYC standards are RECOMMENDATIONS, not requirements. ABYC standards are advisory only and their use is entirely voluntary.

NFPA standards for LPG and CNG systems ARE requirements - they are similar to the ABYC recommendations...
Not true. ABYC Standards have been adopted under many laws/regulations.

ie:

TITLE 46 - SHIPPING

CHAPTER I - COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

SUBCHAPTER C - UNINSPECTED VESSELS

PART 25 - REQUIREMENTS

25.45 - 2 - Cooking systems on vessels carrying passengers for hire.

... (b) Cooking systems using LPG or CNG must meet the following requirements: (1) The design, installation, and testing of each LPG system must meet ABYC A-178 or chapter 6 of NFPA 302.

(2) The design, installation, and testing of each CNG system must meet ABYC A-2278 or chapter 6 of NFPA 302. ...

and many more.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2012, 12:44   #28
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Seattle
Boat: Cal 40
Posts: 2,401
Images: 7
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

Title 33 Part 183 basically applies to recreational vessels in the U.S., and has nothing in it pertaining to propane installations. So you can do any silly thing you want.

As others have said there are good reasons to follow the standards, insurance might require it, being taken to court, avoiding blowing up loved ones.

I believe I'm mostly in compliance, but I'm not going to replace my stove with a thermocouple one tomorrow or the next day.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations:
__________________
cal40john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2012, 19:59   #29
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: Dangerous Propane Systems

We were thoroughly inspected by the surveyor last spring. He pawed through all propane equipment and was more than satisfied. Also, I am a professional engineer and have piped and specified multiple combustable gas and liquid installations in the chemical plants where I worked for 35 years. I hate having anything that can go boom on a boat especially in a closed space. I've known more than one friend whose power boat (gas) burned to the water line. The requirements (or suggestions) for boat installation are modest and would not pass muster in any chemical plant where I have worked. Anything in the suggested rules should be considered the bare minimum. In my experience, anything that can go wrong will, given enough time and neglect. I have seriously considered an on-deck propane locker with no communication to the interior except by hose that exits the locker into open air before entering the vessel.

I inspeced a used boat deliverd by truck that had a CNG installation of two bottles inside the cockpit locker. I found I could get inside the locker, pass over the top edge within the boat and enter the steerage space under the cockpit. Further, the bottom of the locker and the steerage space were open to the space between the cabin sole and hull as well as all other spaces behind interior cabinets. It was very inlightening regarding hopping onto a strange boat for a weekend cruise.

In spite of the tripple safety system on our boat, we always shut off the tank valves, the manual interior shut-off valve, the solenoid valve and pull the solenoid breaker when the gas is not in use.
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-01-2012, 20:18   #30
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 3,900
Re: Dangerous propane systems

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
I guess you missed the kero stove fire thread.....
Yup, I did. But if you have a link I would like to read it.

There was a chap who was trying to winter froze-in in Greenland. He had a pot burner heater with a gravity fed day tank. Bullet proof, except the day tank was over the stove. He was filling the tank from on deck and spilled a couple of gallons over the stove and ..........well, he lost the boat.

But................
One of the complaints of kero stoves is you have to HEAT THE BLOODY KERO in order to get it to burn effectively. I have heard folks here claim that they have seen diesel used to smother fires. Perhaps someone here can expand upon that statement for I have no first hand knowledge. However I have been told by several professionals it is OK to drill into my steel diesel tank, just use some drilling oil. I'll listen to comments on that also.

Both kero and diesel are relatively benign and stable. Sure you can do stupid things and cause a fire. But compared to propane they are relatively safe and simple. Hell, with propane you NEED electricity to run your solenoid.

Propane is fine for many, perhaps most folks. I can understand the ease of use once installed properly.

My personal preferences are somewhat different.
__________________

__________________
hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
propane, danger

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Propane System - Pressure question sf-robert Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 23 25-10-2012 13:40
LiveAboards, Electricity, and GPS Systems - Do I REALLY need them? EelKat Liveaboard's Forum 24 04-01-2012 14:24
Alternative Propane Storage unbusted67 Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 27 28-09-2011 23:35
Location of Propane Solenoid Zatarra Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 11 07-08-2011 16:57



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:13.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.