Cracks in bilge

[Quirocat]

I don't understand why i need to pull the boat? For humidity reasons?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Quirocat

I don't understand why i need to pull the boat? For humidity reasons?

To sand back to gelcoat or fiberglass on the outside around the keel base to check for similar cracks and delamination.

This grounding may have happened 15 yrs ago, or 2 years ago. Don't assume it didn't affect constructional integrity: better to check thouroughly.

[neilpride]

Aloha, here you have few pics from a jeaneau ds 45 i think doing extensive repairs after a grounding, very similar to your case.

Is not cosmetic.
I suffer the same BS years ago with a c&c 40 after a survey, he miss cracks at the mast step area and more cracks at the main bulkhead tabbing, i end after few years droping the keel and spending big $$$ and blaming the surveyor day by day.

Pull the boat out of the water and check really well the keel joint and the whole structure, dont bother to grind filler, antifouling etc...

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Aloha_float

The question I have is "If there is no cracking below the liner, it this simply cosmetic cracking? Understanding that the water seepage is not ideal - I wonder if it is a concern that is being over analyzed? If you check the stringers for moisture and they appear to be sound then I am thinking you could simply glass over to seal the removed area.

How thin was the liner?

I would worry less about a de-humidifier than a heater - the boat I race on every week has a de-humidifier running in it 24 hours a day. It's amazing how must moisture it picks up.

I think you have run with the OP's misnomer. There is no hull liner in this boat.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Quirocat

Thanks Aloha,

I suspect exactly this. It is not at all a structural problem. I still cannot tolerate cracks and water in my bilge. I will redo it for aestetic reasons alone. However, I wants some pros to come in to make sure that it is not structural, and if it is, how to proceed to reinforce it correctly. Meanwhile, I cut and dry and wait.

This is most definitely structural. I would be amazed if there is no other damage to be found by a competent pro.



Drying is not a problem. Just soak it in acetone repeatedly. Ignition protect, obviously. Seriously, you should probably leave all of this to a pro.

[Quirocat]

I pulled her out at purchase a year and a half ago and again this summer to antifoul and inspect. There was no evidence of any kind of delaminating. We checked the hull for moisture, good readings,and especially the keel and all was visually good. Would you really haul her out and grind down to the glass?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Quirocat

I pulled her out at purchase a year and a half ago and again this summer to antifoul and inspect. There was no evidence of any kind of delaminating. We checked the hull for moisture, good readings,and especially the keel and all was visually good. Would you really haul her out and grind down to the glass?

Did you remove the bottom paint before taking moisture meter readings? Do you think they grounded the boat hard enough to delaminate the floor timbers without having some repair work and fairing on the keel? How well was that done, considering they decided to ignore major internal damage? Is this an encapsulated keel, or bolt on? I'd guess encapsulated from a glance at your pics. That would mean a structural repair to the keel as opposed to fairing a gouge in the lead.

[Quirocat]

Thanks Minaret,

No, we did not remove the bottom paint for moisture readings. I wanted to sand down to the gelcoat and really check her out and dry the hull, but was tallked out of it, because of cost of hard time and time for dry out, months.
I believed that it was an encapsulated keel, a major selling point, but i notice bolts running throughout the bilge? I hope to focus on the internal damage now, if I can repair it without pulling the boat? And then do as you suggested: pull her and sand down the keel bulb an keel-hull joint, if there is one.
Still planning to grind out all of the liner to the stringers, and re-glass from stringer and bulkhead tabs to the bilge. Still waiting on advice from the boatyard and a glass expert. Meanwhile just removing all of the damaged glass.
The surveyor has gone strangely quiet as have the previous owners.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Quirocat

Still waiting on advice from the boatyard and a glass expert. Meanwhile just removing all of the damaged glass.
The surveyor has gone strangely quiet as have the previous owners.

You may not believe me, but you put too much faith into your boatyard and fiberglass expert , and way too little into this forum . Minaret is fiberglass expert like no other and you can bet we (the experienced fiberglass amateurs) will all jump on him if he would write something that's not correct

The free advice that is to be found here on the forum, isn't worth less than that which comes with a hefty bill to the contrary I would say. It's just that you need to know if the one that is giving it is real or just a clown

If the boat needs time on the hard to dry out, then it needs to be on the hard to dry out. This, like so many technical things, is not a matter of opinion. When this is ignored, much more severe damage is possible.

May be there's nothing wrong, but at least you'll know that after a thorough inspection. And when it turns out there's something wrong, you have the opportunity to save her

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Quirocat

Thanks Minaret,

No, we did not remove the bottom paint for moisture readings. I wanted to sand down to the gelcoat and really check her out and dry the hull, but was tallked out of it, because of cost of hard time and time for dry out, months.
I believed that it was an encapsulated keel, a major selling point, but i notice bolts running throughout the bilge? I hope to focus on the internal damage now, if I can repair it without pulling the boat? And then do as you suggested: pull her and sand down the keel bulb an keel-hull joint, if there is one.
Still planning to grind out all of the liner to the stringers, and re-glass from stringer and bulkhead tabs to the bilge. Still waiting on advice from the boatyard and a glass expert. Meanwhile just removing all of the damaged glass.
The surveyor has gone strangely quiet as have the previous owners.

Taking moisture meter measurements on top of bottom paint is a sure sign that your surveyor has no idea what he's doing. Moisture meters work by reading the conductivity of the substrate. Since moisture conducts, it causes high readings. But so does anything metallic, like the copper in bottom paint. You can take relative readings that way, ie it will tell you if one part of the hull is wetter than the rest, but that is fairly useless info without knowing if the rest is wet or not. You probably won't hear from the surveyor or PO again unless your lawyer makes them talk, but I seriously doubt it's worth the effort. Hope you have good luck and get a good glass guy! It could be not too tragic, but there's gotta be a hidden repair on that keel. You won't know until someone who knows their stuff takes a grinder too it. Find out if your keel is encapsulated or not. It probably is, your keel bolts would go through those floor timbers if you had them. And the forward bolts would have a fracture around each one from the grounding, most likely.

[Quirocat]

Thanks Minaret,

Great advice. There are cracks about 20 cm forward of the front keel bolts. I am really overwhelmed here and just trying to wrap my mind around the problem and to prioritize the steps for a fix. I've got a good glass guy coming in a few days. Do you think that I should pull her and grind down the keel bulb and hull- keel joint as a first step? Sorry for all of the waffling, this is way over my head.

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Aloha_float

The question I have is "If there is no cracking below the liner, it this simply cosmetic cracking? Understanding that the water seepage is not ideal - I wonder if it is a concern that is being over analyzed? If you check the stringers for moisture and they appear to be sound then I am thinking you could simply glass over to seal the removed area.

How thin was the liner?

I would worry less about a de-humidifier than a heater - the boat I race on every week has a de-humidifier running in it 24 hours a day. It's amazing how must moisture it picks up.

That's what I'm wondering also. Often builders just spray a heavy coat of gel/resin in the bilge to "make things look nice". This thick layer is often prone to cracking from shrinkage... is that what you have here? or is the fiberglass hull cracked?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Quirocat

Thanks Minaret,

Great advice. There are cracks about 20 cm forward of the front keel bolts. I am really overwhelmed here and just trying to wrap my mind around the problem and to prioritize the steps for a fix. I've got a good glass guy coming in a few days. Do you think that I should pull her and grind down the keel bulb and hull- keel joint as a first step? Sorry for all of the waffling, this is way over my head.

Anytime. You are not alone, this sort of thing is unfortunately not uncommon. Just a thought, you mention here the boat has a bulb keel. How many bulbs have you seen that are encapsulated? That would be a rare bird. You almost certainly have a bolt on if its a bulb. That's not a bad thing, but it does mean you need to consider keel bolts. Also means no glass repair to the keel, they probably just epoxy faired the gouges in the lead and called it good. It's pretty common to fix the external scars while the true internal damage goes unnoticed, I see it all the time. The POs may not even have been aware of the extent of damage, particularly if most of it was hidden by tankage. But it looked pretty obvious to me at a glance...

[Aloha_float]

I think It's best to check the keel to confirm. Invest in peace of mind and safety of captain and crew.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Dale Hedtke

Are the cracks "new"? If they've always been there, they could be shrinkage cracks when the polyester resin was curing. This often happens in confined spaces (that don't allow sufficient cooling-the cure is an exothermic reaction that produces heat.)

Is there a layer of built up resin/filler in that area, such as to level out the bilge? It looks like that. Do the cracks run in a specific direction (indicative of stress cracking) or are they random (indicative of shrinkage cracks.)

I agree that doing some grinding is required to better undertand the extent of the problem. It could be a serious structural issue.

Good possibility these are cracks in residual pools of neat resin (resin only - no glass) This is really brittle and will show cracks with very little stress. They should stop at the glass layer. Also possible is cracks in a paint layer or resine overlay such as epoxy bilge paint. As the others have suggested, grind & pray. You might want to grind the outside to the gel coat & see what the outside looks like too. Could be hard grounding or even a hard bump in the boat yard.