Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-10-2005, 16:29   #31
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,587
Images: 240
ISO* chain is embossed with the grade identifier (G3, G4, G7 et al) on EVERY link. If it is, it’s either ISO rated or counterfeit - if it’s not, it’s not ISO rated.
Buying chain may be like buying a ‘Rolex’ watch. There’s lots of fakes out there; but you’ve got a pretty good chance of getting the real deal if you buy from a reputable source. I wouldn’t buy chain from "Johhnie’s Screen Door, Used CD, and Chain Emporium" (push cart), any more than I’d buy a ‘Rolex’ there.
* International Standards Organization
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-2005, 16:41   #32
Registered User
 
capt lar's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Cape Cod
Boat: currently "on the beach"
Posts: 729
Images: 12
i am poking thru my west marine catalog and i notice there is a "sascot plow anchor" that is a copy of the lewmar cqr. they tell me "by vacuum casting instead of forging, sascot reduces cost without sacrificing strength...". all this for less than half the cost of a cqr. ah, technology ! it is certified by lloyd's (for something) . funny the lewmar has a lifetime warranty and the sascot comes in a little shorter at only one year. hmmm....

ok - i don't think this is metallurgy, but you guys know who you are. what's the deal ?

capt. lar
__________________

__________________
Larry

We have met the enemy and he is us. - Walt Kelly
capt lar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-2005, 17:34   #33
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,587
Images: 240
Quote:
capt lar once whispered in the wind:
there is a "sascot plow anchor" that is a copy of the lewmar cqr. they tell me "by vacuum casting instead of forging, sascot reduces cost without sacrificing strength...".
The Casting versus Forging issue has been a subject of much debate for some time.
I won’t solve the matter here - I just don’t know enough.

FWIW - Some Basics:

Casting is the (relatively inexpensive) production of parts by pouring molten metal into a mold. The mechanical properties in a casting are distributed equally in all directions due to the unidirectional grain structure of a cast part. When the design of the part goes beyond a simple shape, a casting may quickly become a more economical choice than a forged piece.

There are two methods, and several mold types used:

Gravity casting is the simplest, cheapest (& oldest) method, whereby the molten material is poured into a mold and allowed to cool. These molds are usually made by machining a piece of material on CNC machine equipment to produce a part that only requires minor finishing (like drilling or possibly trimming of some excess metal) to be considered complete.

Vacuum (low pressure or negative pressure) casting is a better method, whereby, instead of pouring the molten material into the mold, the molten alloy is drawn up into the mold using a high-pressure vacuum. This eliminates much of the trapped air found in gravity casting process, producing a stronger part that’s less porous than a gravity-cast part. Recent advancements in vacuum die casting (VDC) have resulted in improvements to the quality of these alloy castings, and VDC is currently being utilized as an alternative to precision forgings.

Forging is the processes that uses plastic deformation, by pressure or impact blows, to cause a workpiece to attain the required shape. Usually the compressive force is in the form of hammer blows using a power hammer, or a press.

A forging will have higher strength in one direction than another due to its directional grain structure. Forging refines the grain structure and improves physical properties of the metal. With proper design, the grain flow can be oriented in the direction of principal stresses encountered in actual use. Grain flow is the direction of the pattern that the crystals take during plastic deformation. Physical properties (such as strength, ductility and toughness) are much better in a forging than in the base metal, which has crystals randomly oriented. Forged anchors are typically lighter and stronger than their cast counterparts; however they also tend to be more expensive due to the cost of the manufacturing and machining processes.

Forgings are consistent from piece to piece, without any of the porosity, voids, inclusions and other defects sometimes found in castings. Thus, finishing operations such as machining do not expose voids, because there aren't any. Also coating operations such as plating or painting are straightforward due to a good surface, which needs very little preparation.
Three types of forging are (hot & cold): open die, impression die, and closed die forging.

The metal can be forged hot (above recrystallization temperatures) or cold.

Open die forgings or hand forgings are made with repeated blows in an open die, where the operator manipulates the workpiece in the die. The finished product is a rough approximation of the die. This is what a traditional blacksmith does, and is an old manufacturing process.

Impression die forgings and precision forgings are further refinements of the blocker forgings. The finished part more closely resembles the die impression.

Press forging is a closed die method, using a slow squeezing action of a press, to transfer a great amount of compressive force to the workpiece. Unlike an open-die forging where multiple blows transfer the compressive energy to the outside of the product, press forging transfers the force uniformly to the bulk of the material. This results in uniform material properties and is necessary for large weight forgings. Parts made with this process can be quite large as much as 125 kg (260 lb) and 3m (10 feet) long.

Never having seen a “sasquatch”, nor a "sascot plow anchor", I cannot comment on it’s relative quality/value - tho’ I might place similar ‘faith’ in both ...
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-2005, 21:35   #34
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Quote:
capt lar once whispered in the wind:
hey sean - the idea of having a small anchor on deck and the big boy in a locker for "emergency" is still bad imo. "emergency" suggests urgency. finding, moving, attaching a heavy anchor when in trouble is not a good plan. i honestly doubt if any of these guys have a heavy tucked away, or even a spare.
i do it the other way around - best is ready to drop any time. lunch hook is in aft locker and can be pulled out and set at my leisure. sometimes i set it off the stern and then walk it around - but the bow has my best ready to deploy at all times with a second 200' of rope / chain if needed. i follow this method for both sail and power. unfortunatey, what came with this boat isn't good enough yet. the night we were in a howl, i worried more about the rope and scope than the cqr. i have great faith in cqr, based on nothing more than never having one let me down and knowing they will set. while i know i need a 35 lb-er, the 25 did not move. unfortunately, it is $587 light, but i will not change from cqr so i guess it will make a nice spare.


capt. lar
Capt Lar...

Yes, I love the CQR as well, since so far on this boat, it's been nothing but perfect even in 180 deg wind shifts and some good blows where others dragged.

As for "lunch anchors", it may not be a good idea, but it's what a majority of boaters in Maine and NH end up doing. They typically don't go anywhere other than out for the weekend to the Isles of Shoals or Peaks Island or something, and grab a mooring.... or sometimes go out there for lunch and back to home. Cruising distances tend to be shorter, and moorings are more common. Not so much emphasis is put on the anchor for casual weekending and coastal cruising aboard 30-40ft coastal cruisers. They don't live on the boats like we do, so the anchors isn't used to preserve their homes. It's just something to use when you didn't find a mooring.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-2005, 21:37   #35
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Very helpful info, as always Gord... thanks!

Quote:
GordMay once whispered in the wind:
ISO* chain is embossed with the grade identifier (G3, G4, G7 et al) on EVERY link. If it is, it’s either ISO rated or counterfeit - if it’s not, it’s not ISO rated.
Buying chain may be like buying a ‘Rolex’ watch. There’s lots of fakes out there; but you’ve got a pretty good chance of getting the real deal if you buy from a reputable source. I wouldn’t buy chain from 'Johhnie’s Screen Door, Used CD, and Chain Emporium (push cart), any more than I’d buy a ‘Rolex’ there.
* International Standards Organization
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-2005, 07:17   #36
Registered User
 
capt lar's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Cape Cod
Boat: currently "on the beach"
Posts: 729
Images: 12
ditto Gord - interesting stuff.
__________________
Larry

We have met the enemy and he is us. - Walt Kelly
capt lar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-12-2005, 16:55   #37
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Macatawa Michigan
Boat: Amanda Faye 61' Custom Irwin aftcockpit ketch
Posts: 1,414
Images: 106
I have a 45lb CQR clone for sale!
__________________
Gunner
irwinsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2009, 22:29   #38
Registered User
 
Captain Randy's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Orange County, CA
Boat: Cheoy Lee Pedrick 41' 1986
Posts: 37
Ok so this is a ton of information. I just bought a Cheoy Lee Pedrick 41. She came with a 45 lb. CQR. and some crap for chain that needs immediate replacement. Please advise on my best set up for my primary anchor set up to start with. How about I use the CQR, 200 ft of HT 40, 3/8 and 200' of 5/8 three strand rope. Am I on the right track. Currently on the West Coast in So Cal but heading out in a year or two. Thanks for helping the newbie!
__________________
Captain Randy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2009, 23:04   #39
Registered User
 
cat man do's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia [until the boats launched]
Boat: 50ft powercat, light,long and low powered
Posts: 4,409
Images: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Randy View Post
Ok so this is a ton of information. I just bought a Cheoy Lee Pedrick 41. She came with a 45 lb. CQR. and some crap for chain that needs immediate replacement. Please advise on my best set up for my primary anchor set up to start with. How about I use the CQR, 200 ft of HT 40, 3/8 and 200' of 5/8 three strand rope. Am I on the right track. Currently on the West Coast in So Cal but heading out in a year or two. Thanks for helping the newbie!
Oh goody

I'd go one of these
Super SARCA Anchor No 6 - Galvanised Anchors - anchorright.com.au

or one of these



Manson Supreme 45lb
Manson Supreme anchor for pleasure boats


__________________
"Money can't buy you happiness but it can buy you a yacht large enough to pull up right alongside it"...............David Lee Roth
Long Distance Motorboat Cruising – It Is Possible on a Small Budget
cat man do is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2009, 00:32   #40
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Nothing wrong with a good CQR...

I was using a CQR clone before I brought a slightly heavier Manson Supreme. I still have the clone as a backup anchor.

I didn't notice any big difference, though I was slightly more comfortable with the Supreme. Both held the boat in the fairly mild conditions that I have encountered so far (nervous wife).

The clone had had lead poured into the tip. I would suspect that in very heavy mud, or onto some types of rock it may be better.

Rather than throwing away what may be a good anchor why not evaluate your anchoring tackle. You will need at least one backup anchor and maybe a stern anchor.

Could you tell us what anchors came with the boat, what sort of chain and rope and how much of each and what sort of windlass you have and how it is powered (cables, switches etc.)?
__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2009, 05:13   #41
Senior Cruiser
 
idpnd's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Almería, ES
Boat: Chiquita 46 - Libertalia
Posts: 1,551
I've gotten a big CQR with my boat, it's at least 50 kg by the feel of it (the boat is 25 Mton). I am considering purchasing a different anchor as the CQR has performed dismally in all anchor tests I've run into online..
__________________
sv Libertalia
idpnd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2009, 07:59   #42
Registered User
 
Captain Randy's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Orange County, CA
Boat: Cheoy Lee Pedrick 41' 1986
Posts: 37
Actually, I am planning on galvanizing the CQR that came with the boat. Monstly trying to confirm my thoughts on 200 ft of 3/8 HT 40 and 200' of 5/8 three strand rope for rode.
__________________
Captain Randy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2009, 09:26   #43
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2005
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 4,584
Why do you think you need HT chain. Seems like 3/8th G30 chain should be fine for your setup. If you wanted to save weight on the bow, then 5/16th HT40.

Paul L
__________________
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-12-2009, 10:13   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Blue Hill, Maine
Boat: 32' Bob Baker/Joel White Cutter (One-off wood)
Posts: 161
Quote:
Originally Posted by capt lar View Post
why would west sell a package where the rope has a 12,200 lb breaking strength and the chain has a breaking strength of 7,600.- lb.
Rope rode should be sized based on recommended working load NOT breaking test lbs. Recommended working load is 11% of test for Nylon. Ideally, it should be 3-strand, 4-stage rope. Nylon will comfortably withstand occasional loads of 25% or so, but frequent loads of this size or infrequent greater loads will weaken the rode. It's a little bit out of date, but I still think everyone should read the Bible of Anchoring, as nothing else out there can school you on the fundamentals behind it all:

"The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring" by Earl R. Hinz
__________________
marujo.sortudo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-2009, 07:45   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,321
Good thread but there is no mention of the link between the anchor and the chain, which often is the weakest part of an all chain rode. Beware of S/S Anchor Connector Swivels they have a bad reputation.
__________________

__________________
chala is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, cqr

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Manual, vertical-axis anchor windlass Andy Construction, Maintenance & Refit 16 10-07-2016 06:09
Learned from Bitter Experience Rule 103 - Never Drop Anchor Near Derelict Wharves svstrider The Sailor's Confessional 3 21-01-2011 18:11
Spade Anchor Unsafe - Remedy ? GordMay Health, Safety & Related Gear 37 04-04-2009 01:19
Moorings 29cascadefixer Anchoring & Mooring 8 15-12-2006 21:39
Anchor Spring Lines GordMay Liveaboard's Forum 3 15-11-2003 14:04



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:58.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.