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Old 26-11-2008, 22:24   #31
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May I ask if it's Rod rigging, named after Rod Stephens (and which he called Wire rigging, saying it was 1-strand formed wire)? I'm sure you also recall S&S was a NASA consultant on the shuttle rigging.
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Old 26-11-2008, 23:42   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Don't straighten cotter pins. Don't reuse cotter pins. If they need to come out that often use something else.

Just because he wrote a book doesn't make him right. You can tell by the writing voice he uses that this is just his personal preference.
100% right.
Bend stainless just once and you weaken it, bent it twice and it's worse. Bend it ten times, it breaks. Olin may have been a superb designer, but he sure got it wrong with cotter pins.
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Old 26-11-2008, 23:50   #33
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OK, I fully understand what best practice is when it comes to cotter pins but has anyone personly had a reused cotterpin failure on a rig or know of the same.

Of course if you have never reused a cotter pin, you can't have failure of a re-used pin but this is a question for those of us who haven't (always) followed best practice.
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Old 26-11-2008, 23:59   #34
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Yes, for each of the last three years. And in replacing the rig on a previous boat every one of the deck-level cotters had been removed at least once, based on their bent/twisted condition. (Each of those was replaced.)

If I can remove and replace the cotter pin with my fingers during annual inspection, and there's no visible deformation, then it goes back in.
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Old 27-11-2008, 00:00   #35
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ooops, misread.

I've reused cotters, but no, I've never had a cotter pin failure except a cotter ring on the mainsheet that got torn off.
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Old 27-11-2008, 02:24   #36
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Three universal rules for the use of Cotter Pins:
1. Don't reuse cotter pins.*
2. Always use the largest cotter pin that will fit the hole.
3. In general, when a fastener must be safetied, properly installed safety wire is preferable to a cotter pin.

* Why would anyone want to great bother of straightening & re-using a piece of essential safety hardware, just to save $0.10 to $1.00?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amgine
A cotter pin is a mild steel or bronze piece of hardware whose role is unlikely to be compromised by work hardening...
Except when it’s stainless steel, as mostly used on boats.

Mild steel cotter pins are made of very soft (malleable) metal, making them easy to install and remove; but also making it inadvisable to use them to resist strong shear forces. They also rust easily.

I’ve NEVER seen a Shop Manual that recommended (or even permitted) re-using a cotter pin.

Ie: Cotter Pin usage from Outboard Engine Shop Manuals:

Mercury/Mariner Shop Manual:
Mercury/Mariner Outboard Shop Manual ... - Google Book Search

Yamaha Shop Manual:
Yamaha Outboard Shop Manual: 2-225 ... - Google Book Search

Evinrude/Johnson Outboard Shop Manual:
Evinrude/Johnson Outboard Shop ... - Google Book Search


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname
OK, I fully understand what best practice is when it comes to cotter pins but has anyone personally had a reused cotter pin failure on a rig or know of the same....
YES.
Thirteen examples of industrial accidents involving cotter pins:
http://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/Acciden...eyword_list=on
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Old 27-11-2008, 02:38   #37
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I've seen reused and failed cotter pins and have replaced same with new.

And Gord is buying top of the line cotter pins at .10c each - LOL.

I think I buy bags for a couple of dollars. Cheapest thing on a boat probably except perhaps the skipper that reuses them - LOL...
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Old 27-11-2008, 03:17   #38
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Quote:
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May I ask if it's Rod rigging, named after Rod Stephens...
I think you are asking me this, apologies if someone else.

But in case, our rigging is wire (named after Wire U. Askin).
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Old 27-11-2008, 04:39   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
.....
* Why would anyone want to great bother of straightening & re-using a piece of essential safety hardware, just to save $0.10 to $1.00?
When I have left my cotter pin supply at home and the nearest supplier is also 100 miles away .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
OK, I fully understand what best practice is when it comes to cotter pins but has anyone personly had a reused cotterpin failure on a rig or know of the same...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
.......
YES.
Thirteen examples of industrial accidents involving cotter pins:
Accident Search Results Page
I am sorry Gord, but I don't understand why you have answered YES to my question and then provided 13 examples that bear no relationship to the question. None of the examples relate to a rig (implied as "sail boat standing rigging"), none relate to a failure of a cotter pin because it was reused. 5 examples refer to cotter pins that were missing, 4 to broken cotter pins, 1 to a missing or broken cotter pin and 3 can best be described as "other" occurrences.

The OP is asking about pro and cons of cotter pins and rings for his mast (assumed rigging). Thread drift has included the correct way of fitting cotter pins and the re-use of them. I feel the drift does not include the correct use of pins in aviation, engines and castellated nuts etc however interesting these matters are (and I assure everyone that I am interested myself in such matters).

My point being that although it may be best to always use new cotter pins in your mast rigging, I don't believe it is such a big deal to sensibly re-use them. In order to confirm (or otherwise) my belief, I was asking for real time examples where a re-used cotter pin had failed in a sailboat rig. I can't think of a more appropriate group of peers to whom to put this question.
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Old 27-11-2008, 05:34   #40
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Wotname is absolutely right - something is better than nothing, even when nothing might do.
I routinely sailed without any safety on my turnbuckles. Every year, when I re-stepped my mast, the first sail (boatyard to marina) would be used to fine-tune the rig, and safeties weren’t installed until I was satisfied with the rig tension.

I apologize for submitting irrelevant information about cotter pin failures. I interpreted the question much to broadly, which led me to pick on a much larger nit, than Wotname intended.

Whilst it may “not be such a big deal” I seldom advise to the lowest possible standard. I believe in (and strive for) excellence in all things. Through understanding how things work, we learn better ways of doing things, which forms the basis for making an informed decision on what we can “get way with” in extremis.
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Old 27-11-2008, 05:43   #41
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I concur
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Old 27-11-2008, 06:27   #42
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While I agree that rings should not be used through clevis pins that attach standing rigging to the chainplates/tangs, I use rings on my open body turnbuckles (deck screws for those from the UK) as there is no risk of 'losing the rig' should one be accidentally removed (something which has never happened to me, by the way).
They are easier to remove for tensioning the rig, can be reused and don't snag lines/ankles etc.

Brad
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Old 27-11-2008, 09:22   #43
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Midland One, that was hilarious.

This whole thread is silly. Why even take a million to one chance with such a costly item as a yacht. If you are looking to trim costs onboard, put off that new networked radar/watermaker/electric head combo you want and buy a bag of cotter pins.
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Old 27-11-2008, 10:05   #44
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Sages debated the number of angels who could dance on the head of a pin, while millions died of the plague. I guess the direction of your thoughts and deeds depends entirely on what yanks your chain.

Suppose they had internet forums back then. Would they be any different from us?
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Old 27-11-2008, 10:35   #45
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mild vs stainless

You're right about mild vs stainless on boats, Gord, but the type of stainless used in cotter pins on boats is generally focused more on its ductility than its stainless characteristics.

Since I customize some of my cotter pins for the situation, I prefer not to throw away my effort without purpose. My time has a price, making the cheap doohickey suddenly more expensive. For the cotters aloft I'll be considering just throwing them away, since I don't customize them, but as long as the lowers pass inspection I don't see the point except, perhaps, at scheduled intervals based on real work cycle data. And on the boat a cotter simply doesn't experience those kinds of work cycles except when being bent by me.
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