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Old 19-02-2012, 01:30   #16
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Re: Cost of Repaint

Ten years ago we were using walnut shells, ten years from now we should have something better then Kiwi Grip but for now I think it's great. It is easy to apply, and looks fantastic, it works for me. Practical Sailor and Good old Boat
give it a thumbs up.

Rhino shield truck bed liner, that sounds great, I think I will use that in my cockpit sole next time.
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Old 19-02-2012, 03:29   #17
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Re: Cost of Repaint

With a 42 yo deck / coachroof (in light "duck egg?? blue - now faded somewhat) that also has the battle scars that the age would suggest I have pondered this as well.

As deck and fittings are watertight (and no core ) my decison has been to leave well alone . After a while one doesn't really notice imperfections - and from 10 foot away no one else can either .....I only mention that because when buying a new (s/h) boat easy to get carried away ($$$) with making things look factory fresh - that don't really need that approach.

Not to say that the deck wouldn't look a lot better with a fresh coat of paint - but I figure that whatever goes on will never be as long lasting as the original gelcoat.

Having said that, have mulled over putting some anti-slip paint on (at present simply moulded tread) - but a) haven't been bothered! and b) suspect that doing so will make the rest of the deck look worse!........but if I did do that, would favour something that could (fairly easily) be sanded down and recoated - even if the price of that was having to repeat the process every 5 years or so (or just before a sale ) for cosmetic reasons rather than being a "once in a lifetime" application (I have no great faith in any product lasting "forever" when applied on a boat, especially when underfoot on deck).

For example:-

Removing Old Paint

For me the favourite would therefore be good old fashioned deck paint (on top of a decent primer).
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Old 20-02-2012, 02:21   #18
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Re: Cost of Repaint

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post

.....As deck and fittings are watertight (and no core ) my decison has been to leave well alone . After a while one doesn't really notice imperfections - and from 10 foot away no one else can either .....I only mention that because when buying a new (s/h) boat easy to get carried away ($$$) with making things look factory fresh - that don't really need that approach. .....
DOJ, you probably just saved me some $$. This is exactly my case ... fittings and deck conditions are perfect in terms of watertightness. There's not a leak anywhere and as you say from 10+ feet away no one notices except me. Thanks for the reality check.

I think I'm good with what I got .... for now??
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Old 20-02-2012, 02:41   #19
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Re: Cost of Repaint

G'Day Doodles,

Ya know, there is an intermediate value answer. One can successfully paint these areas without removing all the hardware (the big labour costs are here). I know that Minaret and other pro perfectionists will cringe, but we managed to do just what you described by a lot of careful masking and then roll and tip painting the smooth areas followed by lots more careful masking and doing the nonskid areas with an industrial product similar in performance to Kiwigrip but at about 20% of the cost.

I'm absolutely sure that a 15 K$ professional job would look better, but what we got is way better than the fading, chalking 20 year old paint that we covered up, and it didn't cost all that much... sandpaper, disks, primers and topcoats and LOTS of masking tape (the good kind that will come off after a couple of weeks of sun exposure).

And for those considering the Kiwigrip style non-skid: Minaret doesn't like it, but I think that it provides the absolute best traction on wet or dry decks that I have ever experienced. It is easy to apply, it's cheap (this Australian product, called Colourfast Acrylmeric Sportscote was 180 AU$ for 15 litres, enough to do our decks twice over), and after nearly two years of use, it's still in new condition... except, just like Minaret said, it is hard to clean.

So, there are other choices than big bucks and decay.

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 20-02-2012, 03:08   #20
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Re: Cost of Repaint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
DOJ, you probably just saved me some $$. This is exactly my case ... fittings and deck conditions are perfect in terms of watertightness. There's not a leak anywhere and as you say from 10+ feet away no one notices except me. Thanks for the reality check.

I think I'm good with what I got .... for now??
I'll take 10% of that .
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Old 20-02-2012, 04:11   #21
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Re: Cost of Repaint

Thanks Jim Cate, that's another great idea. It's really just the cockpit that got me bugged, so maybe I can limit the pain by finding a good cutoff point that will not look like I just painted half the boat.

Since I'm not 100% sure what I'll end up doing, I'll have to hold onto the 10% for a bit DOJ.

Thanks to everyone for all the good advice. Really appreciate it.
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Old 20-02-2012, 06:08   #22
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Re: Cost of Repaint

I just stripped the non-skid paint on my boat using Citristrip. It is cheap, works great
and is Green(if that matters to you) It did a fine job on the paint and won't harm the gel
coat.
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Old 20-02-2012, 06:54   #23
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Re: Cost of Repaint

Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan6a View Post
I just stripped the non-skid paint on my boat using Citristrip. It is cheap, works great
and is Green(if that matters to you) It did a fine job on the paint and won't harm the gel
coat.
It does, thanks.
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Old 20-02-2012, 11:11   #24
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Re: Cost of Repaint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
G'Day Doodles,

Ya know, there is an intermediate value answer. One can successfully paint these areas without removing all the hardware (the big labour costs are here). I know that Minaret and other pro perfectionists will cringe, but we managed to do just what you described by a lot of careful masking and then roll and tip painting the smooth areas followed by lots more careful masking and doing the nonskid areas with an industrial product similar in performance to Kiwigrip but at about 20% of the cost.

I'm absolutely sure that a 15 K$ professional job would look better, but what we got is way better than the fading, chalking 20 year old paint that we covered up, and it didn't cost all that much... sandpaper, disks, primers and topcoats and LOTS of masking tape (the good kind that will come off after a couple of weeks of sun exposure).

And for those considering the Kiwigrip style non-skid: Minaret doesn't like it, but I think that it provides the absolute best traction on wet or dry decks that I have ever experienced. It is easy to apply, it's cheap (this Australian product, called Colourfast Acrylmeric Sportscote was 180 AU$ for 15 litres, enough to do our decks twice over), and after nearly two years of use, it's still in new condition... except, just like Minaret said, it is hard to clean.

So, there are other choices than big bucks and decay.

Cheers,

Jim

A solid reply as usual Jim. I think that economy of a paint job is very important for our clients, and have spent a lot of time and effort figuring out the most efficient ways to achieve a nice finish. For a very long time we did most of our paint jobs exactly as you describe, leaving most of the hardware on and masking it off for paint. We did this because owners did not want to pay for the hardware removal, thinking they were paying extra for work that is not really necessary. But after years of effort and research and running the numbers, we found that in many cases it is actually FASTER to pull the hardware and rebed it after painting than it is to mask it off. Countless hours end up getting sucked into pulling tape and retaping at each stage of the job. We use a lot of techniques to mitigate this, such as a base layer of masking with a replaceable finish layer that gets switched with each coating or sanding, etc. etc. So what I'm saying here is that within reason, pulling hardware can get you a better finish with rebedded hardware in less time than masking can. I have been keeping records for many years, and we record hours religously. On many boats there are of course exceptions to the rule. Look at some of the pics of deck paint jobs I've posted and you'll see that we almost always pull all the stanchions, because they take forever to mask and slow you down dramatically sanding around them, as well as being the thing most in need of rebedding. We rarely pull portholes, however, because they are easy to work around but hard to remove and rebed. It's all about saving the client a buck. We don't advertise at all, and have not had any slow down despite the state of the economy and the yards closing all around us. That's because we put out the best results for the least money and get loads of word of mouth. Most of the 15k bill involves hours of labor, not materials. A DIY job could be done just as well for surprisingly cheap by an intelligent neophyte, and in fact I have helped many clients do just that. Most acheive an excellent finish for a few thousand dollars, and much of that is lay days. I feel much the same about Kiwigrip. Most of the expense is in the labor of prep and masking, not in the product you apply. Therefore apply the best product you can get, with the greatest longevity. This also minimizes expense, by reducing the number of times you need to do the job over the life of the boat. And it looks better, is easier to maintain, and more comfortable. JMHO.
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Old 20-02-2012, 11:36   #25
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Re: Cost of Repaint

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
What's with all the Kiwi Grip? I can't stand that stuff. It looks so cheap and crappy, impossible to clean well, feels just wrong on the feet. Poor longevity as well. I think people are getting suckered by the relative newness of this product. I doubt it will still be used in ten years.
I agree totally. Pay a pro and then have them ut on KG? No way...
Boy, I'm surprised at the low prices. My negotiated price in Trini to do the deck was as much as many mentioned above. And I put on Treadmaster after the paint job! They did have to fill a few hundred holes from removal of teak decking though....
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Old 20-02-2012, 12:22   #26
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Re: Cost of Repaint

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Wow, we're too damned cheap... We're doing a total repaint (hull and house), kiwi grip, bottom peel, blister job and epoxy coat, barrier coat, bottom paint to racing prep and some glass work for about 24K on an SC-50.

Hell, our deck job, including all hardware, would be about 5K. Too cheap I tell ya...


Hey Charlie, if you can really do a deck job including skid and pulling hardware and rebedding for 5k, will you do mine? That's cheaper than I could do it myself by a long shot! What do you pay your crew, six packs of beer?! Our quality guys who have been with us from the start get $25-$35 an hour, with excellent coverage and bennies. Even our laborers get close to $20. As a result our shop rate is high, though not as high as most in Seattle, even though they pay substantially less in wages with few bennies. If you can really Awlgrip a deck with hardware removal and skid (real skid not Kiwigrip) for that rate, I'm coming up there! Somehow I doubt it though, for us the materials bill is usually about $1500 and lay days are about $1500, leaving not much for labor. Out our rate that would mean the whole job would have to be done in less than 5 man days, or 40 hours. Not even close to possible. What is your rate? If you are burying these costs in a bigger job just to get the job, that's one thing, but doing just the deck job for 5k is insanely cheap. Like giving it away just to keep the crew busy cheap.
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Old 20-02-2012, 12:27   #27
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Re: Cost of Repaint

well......... Bellingham is a bit of a third world country.....
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Old 20-02-2012, 12:31   #28
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Re: Cost of Repaint

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well......... Bellingham is a bit of a third world country.....


LOL!! ROFLMAO!!! That was harsh....

But, yeah, I'm sure the wages are much lower there. Cost of living is not so high, even though it's just a few hours away. Just makes sense that things would be cheaper. But not THAT much cheaper....
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Old 20-02-2012, 14:03   #29
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Re: Cost of Repaint

Well.... I was just kidding, I like bellingham and I'm only a half hour away.... but there are some... shall I say.... "alternative" people there! Which makes it fun actually... There reall estae is cheaper... not sure the wages are much though for skilled people....OK I'll shut up now.....
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Old 20-02-2012, 16:23   #30
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Re: Cost of Repaint

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
A solid reply as usual Jim. I think that economy of a paint job is very important for our clients, and have spent a lot of time and effort figuring out the most efficient ways to achieve a nice finish. For a very long time we did most of our paint jobs exactly as you describe, leaving most of the hardware on and masking it off for paint. We did this because owners did not want to pay for the hardware removal, thinking they were paying extra for work that is not really necessary. But after years of effort and research and running the numbers, we found that in many cases it is actually FASTER to pull the hardware and rebed it after painting than it is to mask it off. Countless hours end up getting sucked into pulling tape and retaping at each stage of the job. We use a lot of techniques to mitigate this, such as a base layer of masking with a replaceable finish layer that gets switched with each coating or sanding, etc. etc. So what I'm saying here is that within reason, pulling hardware can get you a better finish with rebedded hardware in less time than masking can. I have been keeping records for many years, and we record hours religously. On many boats there are of course exceptions to the rule. Look at some of the pics of deck paint jobs I've posted and you'll see that we almost always pull all the stanchions, because they take forever to mask and slow you down dramatically sanding around them, as well as being the thing most in need of rebedding. We rarely pull portholes, however, because they are easy to work around but hard to remove and rebed. It's all about saving the client a buck. We don't advertise at all, and have not had any slow down despite the state of the economy and the yards closing all around us. That's because we put out the best results for the least money and get loads of word of mouth. Most of the 15k bill involves hours of labor, not materials. A DIY job could be done just as well for surprisingly cheap by an intelligent neophyte, and in fact I have helped many clients do just that. Most acheive an excellent finish for a few thousand dollars, and much of that is lay days. I feel much the same about Kiwigrip. Most of the expense is in the labor of prep and masking, not in the product you apply. Therefore apply the best product you can get, with the greatest longevity. This also minimizes expense, by reducing the number of times you need to do the job over the life of the boat. And it looks better, is easier to maintain, and more comfortable. JMHO.
G'Day Minaret,

That's a very interesting reply! I don't doubt your research or numbers, but find them surprising -- as I guess you did too!

In our case labour was free (ho,ho), and we were in the water so lay-days didn't add to the costs. We were fortunate to have zero deck leaks and I was reluctant to risk that exalted state by removing things... especially bigger things like the radar arch. On our one-off timber boat we can access the underside of essentially all hardware, but for those considering such a job on a production boat this may not be the case, and that worry might help lead one to the masking option. There are lots of variables...

At any rate, both your yard and that of Charlie C sound like places that I would seek out if I were in your neck of the woods. It's good to hear of folks with attitudes like yours.

And Doodles, good luck with your project.

Cheers,

Jim
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