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Old 23-08-2015, 14:00   #16
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

The average "consumer" grade electric drill is designed and built for the way the average consumer uses it. That is, surprise, only THREE HOURS of actual operation before the tool is thrown out.


You need commercial quality tools if you plan to do any real projects with them.


Batteries? I doubt the batteries in any home tool have ever been maintained the way that the battery makers want them to be. For NiCd and NiMh that could mean charging them once a month, every month, as well as after use. For lithium or gel...the requirements get even higher. After all, allowing a lithium pack to go below 2v per cell can ruin the whole pack, and that could just mean "I used the drill and put it away over the winter without charging it."


Power tools often used to use a strong of conventional (i.e. C or D) batteries simply soldered inside, and replaceable by any handy person or as a shop repair. Then someone figured out, they could make way more money by selling you special packs that could only be bought from them. Easier to replace, easier to carry a spare, easier to spend more money on, in the long run.
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Old 23-08-2015, 14:05   #17
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Brown View Post
...
You can buy a 25 or 50-ft extension cord and a Black & Decker 3/8" drill motor for $50 and have unlimited usage time without having to re-charge a battery pack and still reach every location on the boat.
...
I have a decent inventory of cordless tools that are useless because the batteries are dead. The Black & Decker corded drill I bought decades ago still works and has done far more work than my cordless drill that ran through a couple of expensive batteries.

I think I have 4 battery chargers but as the batteries died off I did not replace them. The last battery died when I went and drilled some holes in a plastic plant container which took a few seconds and not effort at all. I put the battery back in the charger as always and went about my business. Then I smelled something electrical burning and started searching for the smell. Turned out he battery was SMOKING in the charger! I unplugged the charger and picked up the battery with a towel, hoping it would not explode and tossed it on our gravel driveway. I can burn all it wants on gravel.

The battery did not burn but the case was melted and I suspect if I had not found the source of the smell and unplugged the charger, the battery would have caught fire. This would have been bad because the battery was on a counter top under a wall cabinet and I think the battery could have burnt down the house if it had caught on fire.

For the amount of money I have spent on batteries, I could have a much nicer collection of corded tools that still work.

Later,
Dan
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Old 23-08-2015, 14:12   #18
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

"Turned out he battery was SMOKING in the charger! "
I've often thought, I should buy a fire safe. Or at least a bug Pyrex roasting pan. Or a stack of cinderblocks.
Something, that would make a SAFE place to put all the batteries and chargers, since they have such a well-earned reputation among fire departments for burning buildings down.


I wonder if anyone still makes those big metal boxes that people used to use, when the milkman delivered milk to your doorstep....
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Old 23-08-2015, 14:26   #19
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

Buy an invertor and get 120v tools cheaper, no battery fails and stronger tools.


So you are hauled out in Timbuktu, and need to cut a 2" hole with a hole saw thru 1" thick fiberglass.... howz that cordless gonna work out for you then after the battery pack has degraded sitting mostly for a year or two??


I do have an old corded 12v drill motor though is someone wants it!
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Old 23-08-2015, 14:45   #20
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

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Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
Interesting to see the differing opinions and personal solutions, though I was really just wondering if there were any quality 12v tool manufacturers, because it seems there would be a market for them if they were available.

Was cleaning up the shop last week and found the tools and batteries in the picture below. That's about five years of batteries (don't know how many I've recycled), about 900.00 worth (not counting the cost of the tools), and only two of the drills are still operational. Granted they've seen a lot of use and abuse, but I've got 30 year old AC tools that still work fine, changed cords and brushes and switches on most of them....

Inverters good enough and powerful enough to run a 10-12 amp AC power tool are not very expensive, and I'll most likely be getting one, but I'm a big fan of simple, and to me a 12v battery that I already have, running 12v tools, were they available, would be the simplest route.

Even though batteries should be looked at as 'consumables', it just goes against the grain for me. While battery powered tools may be somewhat more convenient, sometimes, the cost, energy inefficiency, limited life and toxic properties seem to me to make their advantages over corded tools a wash.

And by the way, one of the drills in the picture is a 12v variable speed drill. I tried running it with a 12 volt car battery, but if you run it through the switch, there is apparently some kind of circuitry in the switch that prohibits it. I was able to get it to run forward and reverse, but only by taking the switch out of the circuit and reversing the polarity manually, and there is no variable speed.

Oh well, guess I should be glad I don't have to use the tools in the second picture...


And...thanks for the replies.
Go back to the brace and bit. No batteries to get rig of.
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Old 23-08-2015, 15:15   #21
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Power tools often used to use a strong of conventional (i.e. C or D) batteries simply soldered inside, and replaceable by any handy person or as a shop repair. Then someone figured out, they could make way more money by selling you special packs that could only be bought from them. Easier to replace, easier to carry a spare, easier to spend more money on, in the long run.
A large portion of the current generation of LION tools use 18650 LION cells. A handy person can still replace the cells if they are so inclined (tons of youtube vids). In most cases in makes no sense as the labor in China is so cheap they can sell brand new packs for just a few dollars over the cost of cell replacements.
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Old 23-08-2015, 15:21   #22
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

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Originally Posted by travellerw View Post
A large portion of the current generation of LION tools use 18650 LION cells. A handy person can still replace the cells if they are so inclined (tons of youtube vids). In most cases in makes no sense as the labor in China is so cheap they can sell brand new packs for just a few dollars over the cost of cell replacements.
Further to this.. When one of my packs dies, I cut it open and test each cell. I take the good cells out and make up USB charging packs with them. The USB charging cases are like $2 on Ebay.
Inac 5600mAh 5V USB Power Bank Case 18650 Battery Charger DIY BOX FOR Cell Phone | eBay
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Old 23-08-2015, 16:31   #23
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

There are many myths about battery technology. I can help all of you increase the life of your current inexpensive tool batteries by about 30%.

First, understand that there are three primary battery manufacturers for the major world players in the tool market. So how can it be that the commercial grade tool batteries last longer and at significantly different levels?

From the manufacturers perspective, there are ways to significantly extend the life. First, we place controllers inside of the tool itself on the upper end tools that regulate output based on loads and ambient temperatures. Inside of this, there are specific proprietary software protocols that become the true value added product between the various manufacturers and models. However, if you bought a home grade tool system, sorry, this is not in your tool and you go through batteries due primarily to heat.

Second, chargers are the second culprit to poor life. A cheap charger primarily charges to time, because that is what you the consumer asked for. A commercial grade charger has a complex controller and more important, software that controls charging cycle. Sorry, if you bought it in a big box it likely does not have this either.

What can you do? Never charge your tool below above 37C. (100F) Never charge your tool below freezing. Ever. Always use the tool as it was intended. If you paid $100euros ($100) for this tool, it was not made to do repetitive use. Use your hand and if you feel it heating up, stop. Wait for it to cool, then use it again. Last, when you are charging it and its full, take it off the charger immediately. You absolutely don't have to do this with the best tools. Temperature is your enemy. Check out this website for your bedtime reading pleasure... Charging Lithium-Ion Batteries – Battery University

Also, as I said before, I am a manufacturer and I owned an inexpensive Ryobi because I could not justify to the admiral that I should buy an expensive one from my own company. It wasn't until the head of worldwide production came to my house and saw it did one magically show up at my door. Each product has its reason, and the day I drop this good one in the ocean will be the day I go back to buy the less expensive product.
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Old 23-08-2015, 16:35   #24
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbunyard View Post
Interesting to see the differing opinions and personal solutions, though I was really just wondering if there were any quality 12v tool manufacturers, because it seems there would be a market for them if they were available.

Was cleaning up the shop last week and found the tools and batteries in the picture below. That's about five years of batteries (don't know how many I've recycled), about 900.00 worth (not counting the cost of the tools), and only two of the drills are still operational. Granted they've seen a lot of use and abuse, but I've got 30 year old AC tools that still work fine, changed cords and brushes and switches on most of them....

Inverters good enough and powerful enough to run a 10-12 amp AC power tool are not very expensive, and I'll most likely be getting one, but I'm a big fan of simple, and to me a 12v battery that I already have, running 12v tools, were they available, would be the simplest route.

Even though batteries should be looked at as 'consumables', it just goes against the grain for me. While battery powered tools may be somewhat more convenient, sometimes, the cost, energy inefficiency, limited life and toxic properties seem to me to make their advantages over corded tools a wash.

And by the way, one of the drills in the picture is a 12v variable speed drill. I tried running it with a 12 volt car battery, but if you run it through the switch, there is apparently some kind of circuitry in the switch that prohibits it. I was able to get it to run forward and reverse, but only by taking the switch out of the circuit and reversing the polarity manually, and there is no variable speed.

Oh well, guess I should be glad I don't have to use the ytools in the second picture...


And...thanks for the replies.

All that DeWalt is your problem. Switch to Milwaukee. I'm fully geared in M12 and M18, long time hard use pro, have used it all. Milwaukee is all I will buy now. I buy only on Amazon. The secret to reasonable pricing is don't buy packages. If you add up the cost of the naked tool, the batteries, and the charger individually, they are charging you $100 on average for the plastic molded case the kit fits in. Buy just the naked tool (no battery). Most are less than $100, even for obscure tools, and believe me they make absolutely everything in M12 or M18. Then, instead of buying Milwaukee batteries ($), buy the cheap Chinese AK replacements. You can get the upgraded battery size for less than the normal ones from Milwaukee this way, and even cheaper in packages of two or more. Chargers are $25 or less. Done this way, you can get fully geared up for pretty cheap. And many M12 tools just have no comparable replacement IMHO. It just requires a bit of research. Most beloved M12 tools right now: Mini Cordless Sander/Buffer & M12 3/8" drive Socket Wrench & M12 Hackzall. I even have the cordless PEX fitting stretcher for Wirsbo fittings. Still have at least a dozen M12 & M18 items in my Amazon Wish List, despite owning at least two (or three) dozen. Cordless Palm Nailer also super awesome. I could make a long list, it's a love affair.
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Old 23-08-2015, 16:42   #25
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

Swami, glad I stuck with this thread long enough to get to your post Thanks for some good info.
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Old 24-08-2015, 07:59   #26
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

I have a very old, Black and Decker, 12 volt, cordless drill. The battery for it died some time back and they don't sell that same battery anymore. So I opened up the battery case, took out the batteries, and wired it to a cigarette lighter plug. I have been using it, off and on, like that for several years now.

When I decided to buy a new, cordless drill, though, I went for an 18 volt model. Has it all over the 12 volt models.
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Old 24-08-2015, 11:07   #27
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

Why battery powered tools at all?
The Sears Roebuck 1/4" AC mains powered drill, purchased in 1967 (with high-tec variable speed) is still a working tool in my tool-kit. I had to change the line cord in 2014.
Just think of all the $$$ I have saved in batteries and chargers in that 48 year period.
The only real use I have for a battery powered drill/driver is when working on the antenna platform or over the side at sea.
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Old 24-08-2015, 11:17   #28
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

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Originally Posted by oleman View Post
Why battery powered tools at all?
The Sears Roebuck 1/4" AC mains powered drill, purchased in 1967 (with high-tec variable speed) is still a working tool in my tool-kit. I had to change the line cord in 2014.
Just think of all the $$$ I have saved in batteries and chargers in that 48 year period.
The only real use I have for a battery powered drill/driver is when working on the antenna platform or over the side at sea.
I don't think there has been a problem for years with battery products. They have just gotten better over the years. I would say that I wouldn't use one for a 3inch hole saw but I have seem a son with one that would do it.
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Old 24-08-2015, 11:21   #29
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

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I don't think there has been a problem for years with battery products. They have just gotten better over the years. I would say that I wouldn't use one for a 3inch hole saw but I have seem a son with one that would do it.
In the last year on my boat I have used my 10 year old Ryobi to cut several holes from 1 1/2" to 4" in marine ply, glassed over ply and a 3" hole in solid glass almost 1" thick. So far, so good.
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Old 24-08-2015, 11:23   #30
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Re: Corded 12 VDC power tools?

30 years ago I shared oleman's attitude. Why would I want a battery powered drill? And for GOD'S SAKE, why would I ever want a battery powered screwdriver!?!

Convenience. That's why. Finally got around to getting my first battery powered drill and screwdriver. It took me about a day to realize that I would NEVER want to be without these unbelievably convenient-to-use tools ever again. EVER!
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