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Old 16-11-2009, 08:05   #46
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"Since so many of you geniuses seem to doubt that copper-loaded epoxies are in fact pesticides,"

I am merely pointing out that your buddy in the paint biz said it won't work. If it won't work, it can hardly be considered a pesticide in the world of common sense. Of course, maybe your paint buddy is a genius like the rest of us.

"check this link to the page on the Coppercoat web site showing the approval for use by the British Health & Safety Executive under The Control of Pesticide Regulations:

http://www.coppercoat.com/documents/...ofApproval.pdf"

That's an interesting link. It states that Approval #7532 has been extended to 5/14/10. Very informative I'm sure.



"Here is a document outlining the California Department of Pesticide Regulation's oversight of anti fouling paints using copper as the main toxin:

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/surfwtr/policies/sanders_sw0503.pdf"
This is an informative link. I am particularly interested in two items.

In the first one, a report by the University of California refers to epoxy encapsulated copper as a "potential nontoxic alternative". I believe that epoxy encapsulated copper is the original subject of this thread.

The second point that interests me -
"No regulations restricting the use of copper AFPs currently exists (sic)
the U.S."


On a different matter-
Bash- No need to fret. Any businessman that sarcastically refers to potential customers as "geniuses" is hardly promoting new business.
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Old 16-11-2009, 09:18   #47
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Bash- No need to fret. Any businessman that sarcastically refers to potential customers as "geniuses" is hardly promoting new business.
As I told your aptly named buddy "Bash", I am not here promoting new business. Nor am I here to kiss anybody's ass.

BTW- I have spoken to the Florida Ag Dept., I have a call in to Maryland and once I speak to the California DPR, I will post the interesting results of those conversations.
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Old 16-11-2009, 09:52   #48
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As always,
California........the "NO" state.

I'm not saying there should be no regulation, but if I can buy copper paint off the shelf why can I not grind up pennies, mix with cayan pepper and waste my own money?
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Old 16-11-2009, 13:19   #49
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Please ask the makers of products similar to whatever it is you are putting on your boat if they didn't have to follow stringent guidelines before making that product available for use. Of course pesticides are allowed into the environment. I didn't say they weren't. But they aren't allowed to be used with zero regulation, are they? Did you have your home-made anti foulant approved by whatever government body regulated Copperpoxy or Coppercoat in your country? Of course you didn't. That's why it is probably illegal for you to use it.

And as for your claim that your home-made anti fouling is "non-polluting"; I'd love to see the water quality studies you performed proving that.
ok . the first application onto my boat was a licensed product called Copperbot in England , the second was a mix I copied from the contents
listed on the tin ! and as far as water quality is concerned IT IS NON - LEECHING , so water quality (of which marinas /harbours are not renowned for having ) is not affected . the copper forms a barrier , cuprous oxide , which is completey stable , oh dear I am repeating myself again ....
what do you think soluble / miscible anti foul does to water quality ? ever rubbed a hand down your hull when in the water ? YUK How long before this type of a/f is banned altogether ? I would guess before copper !
So look to mthe future ( it lasts 8/10 years !) and use copper now !
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Old 16-11-2009, 13:29   #50
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epoxy antifoul

i have this epoxy /copper mix on my tri ,it was on her when i bought her and was 2years old ,when i pulled her out the water i sanded the hull so you could see fresh copper glinting thru ,well i returned her to the water and six months later i pulled her out again and she was covered in growth ,i have since returned to normal antifoul i dont know if australian waters are too warm ,but to me it was a failure
andy
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Old 16-11-2009, 23:43   #51
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Been pondering this thread today (I'm in dire need of a anti-fouling job on my beast and I'm not using the word 'dire' lightly) and while some do like the copper coatings I just can't see how mixing copper powder (whatever) into epoxy would work. There has to be more to it than that or as fstbttms said, all the manufacturers would be into it like a rocket. The fact they aren't is somewhat telling I would say.

Down this way we like to experiment and prefer to have a crack at making rather than buying. I know a couple who have tried making their own anti-fouling (probably illegal here but as our government is less teeth than a new born baby we tend to ignore them) and they didn't really get anywhere good.

About the best anti-fouling I've ever seen or heard down this way was a pile that 'fell off' the back of NZ warship. The Navy got a pile from Korea and it was based on vegetable oil, or so the guys said. Stunk incredibly bad but was, 'supposedly' very environmentally friendly and works like a dream. Sadly next round of tenders they got something else.

Everyone here adds 'their special mix' of gawd knows what into anti-fouling, Cayenne pepper is mentioned a lot. But even with all the fiddling I haven't heard of any that seems to out do any of the off the shelf products.
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Old 17-11-2009, 04:34   #52
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There has to be more to it than that or as fstbttms said, all the manufacturers would be into it like a rocket. The fact they aren't is somewhat telling I would say.
On the contrary, the last thing the paint manufacturers want is an antifouling that lasts ten years, they'd miss out on ripping us off for gallons of paint every year or so! It's entirely in their interest to play down any advantages to a copper / epoxy long lasting coating.

Having said that, we had Coppercoat, worked more-or-less in European waters but was next to useless in the warmer waters of the Caribbean. It was fairly easy to clean in the water, an hour or so with scuba gear got the job done, but that got a bit boring so we overcoated it with a barrier coat and conventional antifoul which works much better. Other friends have Coppercoat on boats here and are pleased with it - it fouls, but they haven't got bored with frequent scrubbing yet. Take your pick...
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Old 17-11-2009, 06:28   #53
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Everyone here adds 'their special mix' of gawd knows what into anti-fouling, Cayenne pepper is mentioned a lot. But even with all the fiddling I haven't heard of any that seems to out do any of the off the shelf products.
Speaking of that, I remember years ago adding tetracycline or terramycin or something like that into Micron CSC before going down to the Bahamas...I think I bought it from a Vet...seemed to work great! Maybe I could add that to epoxy, so that too would become encapsulated and useless...BTW, if you want to scrub your bottom all the time save some money and just use a teflon bottom paint. It will be even easier on ya!
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Old 17-11-2009, 23:18   #54
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I've heard of that tetrabigword stuff being added as well. Antibiotics is another (if it's not that tetra stuff) which I thought was a bit spooky. Might breed some super fouling after time.

Thought of that myself Dedzaboy but if they are being dodgy they run the risk of losing total consumer confidence almost instantly if making anti-fouling was so easy. As anti-fouling is only a tiny part of most paint companies business why risk the entire companies reputation, if not the entire industries, by doing the dodge with something so easy to prove. Just doesn't stack up to me.

But I know they can make anti-fouling which will last a very very long time. I have a mate who works as a chemist for a paint company here, a big name deeply involved with marine paints. He built his own anti-foul for his 40ft high speed launch. A couple of coats lasted over 3 years and he uses the boat a lot. But he did say you wouldn't swim near the boat for the 1st 18 months and any environmental agency would fill their undies with excrement if they knew what was in it. He was sure it glowed at night time for a the first few weeks.

It's all a balance between making it effective as they can without making it create 12 legged Lobsters I suppose.
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Old 18-11-2009, 08:46   #55
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Tetracycline is indeed an antibiotic. It or something similar was on the market for years as a bottom paint additive under the name of "Product X" if I remember correctly. I don't think it's made any more, which is probably just as well if some of the horror stories I've read about adding antibiotics to the environment are accurate.

Another backyard fix involved going to your local building supply store and purchasing a mildewcide designed to be added to interior house paint. Some yachtie read the label and noticed that the primary ingredient was TBT (Tributyltin?). It apparently worked very well at keeping away grass/slime etc. from the waterline when added to the final coat in that area. TBT is now illegal in the states I believe.

Most effective bottom paint I ever heard of fell off a truck on its way to a submarine. The boat owner involved passed away a few years later, but I
believe the same paint was still on the boat and still working.

Before people start telling me what an awful person I am, I would like to say that all of the above is second hand information. Your results may vary.
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Old 18-11-2009, 09:53   #56
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BTW- I have spoken to the Florida Ag Dept., I have a call in to Maryland and once I speak to the California DPR, I will post the interesting results of those conversations.
Well, California and Maryland never got back to me on this, but here is the gist of what I learned from the Dept. of Agriculture in Florida:

In Florida, apparently a private individual can produce their own anti fouling paint. The only restrictions seem to be that all the ingredients must be legal for use and you cannot use any ingredient in a manner that contradicts that ingredient's label. Further, you cannot share, give away or sell the home-made product in any manner. You are forbidden by law from even giving out the recipe (something that has happened several times in this thread alone.)

So, at least in Florida, you can make your own anti fouling paint. I would not have expected this to be the case.
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Old 18-11-2009, 10:39   #57
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My Father-in-Law holds a pesticide licesnce in CA. This allows him to spray crap on golf courses and landscaped hillsides to kill what ever. He is always telling me that the private citizen can do almost anything they want (as long as they don't try to sell it or apply it for someone else), it is the commerical user that is regulated.

So if you want to spray 50 Gals of Diazanone on your 6 rosebushes at home you can. Mix up your special pesticide mix and sell it out of the back of your pick up on the side of Hwy 101, go to jail. The arguement is, that the private indiviual is going to use so little in the grand sceme that it is no worth persueing.
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Old 18-11-2009, 18:34   #58
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An update- I received a call from a California DPR representative today. He basically echoed the Florida position, except to say that this is a grey area in pesticide regulation because so little home-made anti-fouling is produced (presumably). One major difference between California and Florida is that you can share the product and/or the recipe freely here. But there must be absolutely no remuneration, bartering or exchange involved. That would be illegal. But then he went on to say that enforcement is (of course) nearly impossible.

While it is possible that some home-made anti fouling is in use in California, my opinion is that our fouling conditions are such that home-made solutions generally prove ineffective and that's why we don't see them more often.

So, let me be the first to say that I was wrong; that you can legally make your own bottom paint. As a professional hull cleaner, I hope you don't because God knows what you'll put in there. But hey, knock yourselves out. It's your boat and your dime.

And for all the hairy-backed Marys that got their panties in a wad over my posts in this thread- bite me!
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Old 18-11-2009, 21:00   #59
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And for all the hairy-backed Marys that got their panties in a wad over my posts in this thread- bite me!
Loved this so much I had to quote it!
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Old 20-11-2009, 07:21   #60
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Nothing like a gracious loser.
At least he didn't have to kiss any genius' asses.
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