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Old 14-11-2009, 20:18   #16
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I don't think so, copper is allowed and I believe Trinidad is loaded with 70% of it. The question is about the binder: is the epoxy going to be so hard that the copper never gets exposed? or will it fall apart within weeks? But I guess these guys looked into that.

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Old 14-11-2009, 20:45   #17
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I don't think so, copper is allowed and I believe Trinidad is loaded with 70% of it.
Who said anything about copper being illegal? The point is; in the U.S., anti foulants are classified as pesticides. And in some states you aren't even allowed to paint a boat bottom unless you are certified to apply pesticides. I don't know for a fact, but my guess is that in most first-world countries, this one included, it is illegal to whip up a batch of pesticide in your kitchen sink, then slather it all over several hundred square feet of boat hull and then go dunk that boat in our coastal waterways. If the paint manufacturers have to jump through all the regulatory hoops before bringing a product to market, what makes you think Joe Shmoe gets to put whatever kind of nasty home-made poison he wants on his boat and thus into the environment?
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Old 15-11-2009, 01:14   #18
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Well, you seem to know it all, so show me a US law that forbids it's citizens to mix their own paints (or just anti-fouling paints) or stop insinuating that it isn't allowed. I think you are mistaking the law with what one is allowed to sell because that's when all those regulations come up. Mixing paint for own use is different.

Now, if you live in a state where you're not allowed to paint your own boat anyway, it's only logical that they also don't allow you to do that with your own paint, isn't it? I don't really understand why you bring that up? But I would move to another state if I lived in one of those.

Also, do you really think it makes a difference who mixes copper with a binder, an end-user or a manufacturer? That the self-mixed is going to be more poisonous? Like I wrote, the Trinidad has 70% copper and you need a real fancy binder to keep that together (I think it's the maximum technically possible) so the only thing I'm wondering about is the max. copper content that Joe Shmoe manages to reach without the paint crumbling from under the brush.

cheers,
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Old 15-11-2009, 03:33   #19
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The question is about the binder: is the epoxy going to be so hard that the copper never gets exposed? or will it fall apart within weeks?
I use Copper Coat and I loaded as much copper as was possible into my mix. The trick is to sand it lightly afterwards, to expose the copper. Did it work? ... Tought to say, because I sailed to warmer climates immediately afterwards and there it absolutely didn't work. It had worked reasonably well in colder Northern European waters, but I wouldn't call it the end-all of anti-fouling.
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Old 15-11-2009, 05:57   #20
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I would be interested to see some info showing the inter-relative effects of water temp. and polution level, and how they effect growth.
A friend and I both use the same bottom paint on similar boats. My boat sits in a clean water, high tidal flow area, and in 2 years I only get soft scum and a few small barnacles at the waterline.
His boat, in a bay with lots of run-off, grows a forest in three months.
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Old 15-11-2009, 06:16   #21
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I use Copper Coat and I loaded as much copper as was possible into my mix. The trick is to sand it lightly afterwards, to expose the copper. Did it work? ... Tought to say, because I sailed to warmer climates immediately afterwards and there it absolutely didn't work. It had worked reasonably well in colder Northern European waters, but I wouldn't call it the end-all of anti-fouling.
Your experience is similar to another report I have on coppercoat being good in the colder water, but not enough in the warmer tropical waters.

It is relativelt simple to discover what works best in a restricted sailing area, but much more difficult if you are circumnavigating to know exactly what to do.

Similar problem about what to put on the sail drive, and what to put on propellors!

Someone I know has decided to try the coppercoat route and will be doing the atlantic circuit again soon. (already done a number of pond crossings, and fed up with replacing ablative coatings). Going to be interesting to see what he reports.
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Old 15-11-2009, 06:36   #22
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Your experience is similar to another report I have on coppercoat being good in the colder water, but not enough in the warmer tropical waters.
Since my boat is on land right now I have decided to sand the Coppercoat lightly, then I will apply a couple of layers of SeaHawk Islands 44 on top of it. These layers should see me through the next 5 months in the warm waters of the Caribbean. By the time they wear off, I'll be back in colder climates and the copper coat can prove its worth to me.
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Old 15-11-2009, 10:08   #23
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Well, you seem to know it all, so show me a US law that forbids it's citizens to mix their own paints (or just anti-fouling paints) or stop insinuating that it isn't allowed. I think you are mistaking the law with what one is allowed to sell because that's when all those regulations come up. Mixing paint for own use is different.

Now, if you live in a state where you're not allowed to paint your own boat anyway, it's only logical that they also don't allow you to do that with your own paint, isn't it? I don't really understand why you bring that up? But I would move to another state if I lived in one of those.

Also, do you really think it makes a difference who mixes copper with a binder, an end-user or a manufacturer? That the self-mixed is going to be more poisonous? Like I wrote, the Trinidad has 70% copper and you need a real fancy binder to keep that together (I think it's the maximum technically possible) so the only thing I'm wondering about is the max. copper content that Joe Shmoe manages to reach without the paint crumbling from under the brush.
You (once again) have completely missed my point. In this country, anti fouling paint is classified as a PESTICIDE and as such, is highly regulated at the state level in the U.S., regardless of who is making or using it. You make it sound like it's finger paint or something. It's a poison that is going to be introduced to sensitive coastal waterways. There are very strict rules and environmental benchmarks that anti fouling makers must follow before any anti fouling product is allowed on a boat hull in this country. Do you think the makers of Copperpoxy simply formulated the product and put it on the shelves for the end-user to buy without any government oversight? Pesticide is pesticide, whether a multinational corporation is making it or Joe Shmoe in his garage.

I don't make the rules, sport, the respective state and federal governments do. But they have to be followed because we give a sh*t about what is introduced into the marine environment. Further, I bet no respectable boat yard would knowingly allow a home-made anti fouling to be put on a boat in their yard, even if they did allow products not bought there to be used.
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Old 15-11-2009, 10:14   #24
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Who said anything about copper being illegal? The point is; in the U.S., anti foulants are classified as pesticides. And in some states you aren't even allowed to paint a boat bottom unless you are certified to apply pesticides. I don't know for a fact, but my guess is that in most first-world countries, this one included, it is illegal to whip up a batch of pesticide in your kitchen sink, then slather it all over several hundred square feet of boat hull and then go dunk that boat in our coastal waterways. If the paint manufacturers have to jump through all the regulatory hoops before bringing a product to market, what makes you think Joe Shmoe gets to put whatever kind of nasty home-made poison he wants on his boat and thus into the environment?
Please try to understand this .... the copper does NOT leech- it is a stable deterrent to micro-organisms in the sea ., therefore is NON - POLLUTING ! It is far less toxic to sea creatures as it does NOT DISSOLVE IN WATER unlike most anti foul paints , get it ? pesticides are allowed , by "authorities " to drain into the water table and the sea to the detriment of marine life ! thats where the problem is ! .farming puts more harmful chemicals into the enviroment than yachts . joeschmoe.....
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Old 15-11-2009, 10:19   #25
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fstbttms -
jedi may or may not have missed your point, but you seem to have missed his question. He asked you to show him the appropriate laws which prevent a citizen from mixing his own antifouling paint.
I'm curious myself.
You are apparently in a related business, so I hope you are familiar with the laws you refer to.
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Old 15-11-2009, 10:23   #26
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San Francisco. That says enough for me.
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Old 15-11-2009, 10:36   #27
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Please try to understand this .... the copper does NOT leech- it is a stable deterrent to micro-organisms in the sea ., therefore is NON - POLLUTING ! It is far less toxic to sea creatures as it does NOT DISSOLVE IN WATER unlike most anti foul paints , get it ? pesticides are allowed , by "authorities " to drain into the water table and the sea to the detriment of marine life ! thats where the problem is ! .farming puts more harmful chemicals into the enviroment than yachts . joeschmoe.....
Please ask the makers of products similar to whatever it is you are putting on your boat if they didn't have to follow stringent guidelines before making that product available for use. Of course pesticides are allowed into the environment. I didn't say they weren't. But they aren't allowed to be used with zero regulation, are they? Did you have your home-made anti foulant approved by whatever government body regulated Copperpoxy or Coppercoat in your country? Of course you didn't. That's why it is probably illegal for you to use it.

And as for your claim that your home-made anti fouling is "non-polluting"; I'd love to see the water quality studies you performed proving that.
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Old 15-11-2009, 11:25   #28
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fstbttms -
jedi may or may not have missed your point, but you seem to have missed his question. He asked you to show him the appropriate laws which prevent a citizen from mixing his own antifouling paint.
I'm curious myself.
You are apparently in a related business, so I hope you are familiar with the laws you refer to.
I am in a related business. I deal with anti fouling on boats, in the water, every single day and have done for 15 years. Further, I sit on the board of directors of the California Professional Divers Association, an organization that is directly involved in helping set water quality policy in this state as it pertains to anti fouling paint. But as I have said twice now, I don't know for a fact that there is law specific to home-made anti foulants. If you go to the California Department of Pesticide Regulation web site, you will see how many hurdles must be jumped to have a pesticide (and therefore, an anti fouling) approved for use. But these are naturally aimed at commercial interests. I have yet to find find anything that is speaks specifically to the kitchen-sink version of a commercial pesticide.

I have contacts at International Paint, I will question them about this topic and report back.
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Old 15-11-2009, 12:55   #29
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OK, I just got off the phone with my client who is a sales rep for Interlux Paints here on the West Coast. While he could not recite specific laws or regulations, he did say that regardless of where the anti fouling paint is made, or by whom, it is a pesticide and there must be registered with the USEPA, the state EPA and the Department of Pesticide Regulation, not to mention local air quality authorities because volatile organic compounds (VOCs) are are also strictly regulated in anti fouling paints. All of this is of course, specific to California and YMMV depending on where you are. But the point is, and I think, made, that you are not allowed to whip up a batch of home-made anti fouling paint and do whatever you like with it. Of course, doing it and getting caught doing it are two different things.

BTW- When I mentioned the home-made anti fouling in question was an epoxy with copper powder mixed in, he laughed and said, "It won't work. The copper is entirely encapsulated in the epoxy and has no delivery method to reach the surface where it can repel fouling organisms."

And in the interest of complete disclosure, I also called the manager of a local boatyard (who is a client of mine) and him if they would stop a customer from using a home-made anti fouling paint. He said he would try to talk him out of it but would not prohibit him from applying it.
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Old 15-11-2009, 13:06   #30
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Looks to me like a draw--- Fsbttms can't specifically answer Jedi's question, although his 15 yrs experience should be respected, and other posters claim varying degrees of success.
This forum once again proves to be most stimulating.
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