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Old 26-12-2015, 00:41   #91
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by LLCoolDave View Post
I was watching this youtube video and this couple bought a kit to make copper epoxy (not paint). They said it is supposed to last ten years and they got three coats on the hull for $250!
Great timing - thx for posting.
A friend of mine was talking about maybe doing this just a little while ago.

I'll forward the video to him - and keep an eye on this thread for anyone who has already done this and is willing to share their experience
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Old 26-12-2015, 00:43   #92
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Re: Coppercoat

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Coppercoat does not 'leak' into the environment, so I suspect it was some other products that were banned. Coppercoat is being advertised as 'the' environmental friendly coating.
I was worried something might have gotten lost in translation and I misunderstood the exact product this thread was about, but after a little google'ing in English, it think I got it right:

Coppercoat banned in Netherlands? [Archive] - Yachting and Boating World Forums

But please correct me if I'm confusing products here.
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Old 26-12-2015, 00:48   #93
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Re: Coppercoat

Given the fact that there appears to be some consensus developing on the various threads about the benefits of copper based antifouling over ablative and vice versa at least from my extensive Christmas Day reading of this forums threads, I am tempted to try and construct a broad based data gathering exercise to seek evidence based feedback.

There are people with strong views and some expertise from use or maintenance on this thread would any of you like to assist me in forming the key questions and then acting as a Steering Group?

Although I am a contributor on this forum with only two posts I do have some experience in collecting Grade 4 evidence in medical and pharmaceutical testing which would relate very well to resolving this argument.

Al I need is some brainstorming with the the key questions and I can open up a Delphi panel which would possibly create a broader consensus on this thorny argument

My offer , my time for free and the collection and analysis also for a properly managed data collection

Any takers to help?
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Old 26-12-2015, 01:02   #94
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by Iredsell View Post
Given the fact that there appears to be some consensus developing on the various threads about the benefits of copper based antifouling over ablative and vice versa at least from my extensive Christmas Day reading of this forums threads, I am tempted to try and construct a broad based data gathering exercise to seek evidence based feedback.
First off- I'd suggest that the terminolgy be used correctly. "Copper based antifouling" describes a wide range of anti fouling coatings, not just Coppercoat. Coppercoat and other similar products are copper-loaded epoxies. They are not anti fouling paint. Copper-based hard anti fouling paints like Pettit Trinidad, Interlux Ultra etc. are modified epoxies. The Interlux Micron line of paints, Pettit Ultima & Vivid etc. are ablative paints. Ablatives are different from old-style sloughing paints in that ablatives release their biocide in a controlled fashion whereas sloughing paints do not.

There of course are many other types of anti fouling and foul release coatings, some using zinc as a biocide and some using no boicide at all. A complete discussion of all of these is more than I am prepared to present tonight, however.
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Old 26-12-2015, 01:35   #95
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
First off- I'd suggest that the terminolgy be used correctly. "Copper based antifouling" describes a wide range of anti fouling coatings, not just Coppercoat. Coppercoat and other similar products are copper-loaded epoxies. They are not anti fouling paint. Copper-based hard anti fouling paints like Pettit Trinidad, Interlux Ultra etc. are modified epoxies. The Interlux Micron line of paints, Pettit Ultima & Vivid etc. are ablative paints. Ablatives are different from old-style sloughing paints in that ablatives release their biocide in a controlled fashion whereas sloughing paints do not.

There of course are many other types of anti fouling and foul release coatings, some using zinc as a biocide and some using no boicide at all. A complete discussion of all of these is more than I am prepared to present tonight, however.
Thanks as always for your contributions.
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Old 26-12-2015, 08:38   #96
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Re: Coppercoat

Terminology is obviously critical, hence the request for a few minds rather than one.

So I am describing my own interests here, others might not agree

I would be interested in comparing the various coatings, this would be of course what we would all wish to do in selecting the best solution for our usage profile and geographic range.

I would certainly want to set some expectations that can be met rather than the confusion and data sheet bashing that exists in many areas today.

I would wish to include the following areas order and priority brainstorm only. More contributions and yardsticks very welcome, please chip in.

Hull type
Hull Speed
Boat Location
Water type and range
Hull preparation
Application method
Application period/overcoating periods
Impact on fouling types weed, slime, tube, barnacles etc...
Maintenance cycle
Performance measures
Lifetime Cost
Disposal / environmental issues
..... to name but a few.

Since many of these things can be defined pragmatically for each type of coating it might be possible to make some progress in defining shared criteria for performance and then get nearer to a like for like comparison.

My motivation is to get something that would work and meet some defined expectations on a boat that is just about to be manually scraped in preparation for whatever works best.

My preference is to bite off small chunks, my personal priority is to find out what is achievable and use the combined experiences of as many people who can assist. Others might want different things.

At least I can then protect a significant investment with some sensible knowledge.
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Old 26-12-2015, 14:59   #97
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
I was worried something might have gotten lost in translation and I misunderstood the exact product this thread was about, but after a little google'ing in English, it think I got it right:

Coppercoat banned in Netherlands? [Archive] - Yachting and Boating World Forums

But please correct me if I'm confusing products here.
It's a 2005 discussion your quoting there and Beagle's reply (second from the bottom) makes it clear it was legal even then. But, also, the discussion is talking about copper coat paints. It's not exactly clear whether they are talking about the same product we are.
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Old 26-12-2015, 22:22   #98
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Re: Coppercoat

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A picture of the bottom now would be a lot more interesting than a pic of it immediately after paint application.
As I've stated in other threads on CF about Coppercoat, we DO clean the bottom periodically--from every month to every 6 months all depending on where we are and the conditions there. It is notable that if the water has a lot of silt/dirt in it (e.g. rivers) that can build up on the bottom paint, all bets are off regarding its effectiveness at preventing fouling.

No 2015 photo, it's a 30 Ton boat -- not exactly something you haul out frequently if you don't need to. We are a wood boat, now 85 years old, so we do budget to haul every other year or so. After diving on the boat this year, we decided to wait until 2016 for it as the Coppercoat is fine and all else looks good too.

We put the CopperCoat on and launched in 4/2009 and did haul in 2010 to raise the waterline and put a black (Vivid) bootstripe on. And hauled in 2013 to replace the failing black (Petit Vivid) bootstripe with Coppercoat--which is still fine. At that time, we also re-primed and repainted (with coppercoat) all the bronze bits under water. We also reprimed and repainted spots on the (81 year old tar-soaked) keel.

All issues we've had are directly related to tar in the wood preventing good adhesion and/or our own prep of the bronze that was less than adequate. Finally, we have a very tight prop aperture and prop wash thins the paint above the prop. In the 2013 haulout, we sanded down, primed, and painted problem spots.

Two pics--one of the stripped bootstripe and primed metal and keel. The other is a spot where the rudder is having a pine tar seep issue around a fastener bung.

The planking itself is newer wood and w/o a pine tar based sealant. Definitely the better the substrate the better the CopperCoat stays on.

None of this is about fouling effectiveness. It is effective. No miracle product and no wild claims of that have been made. It just works. For seemingly a long time (6 years and still going).




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Old 26-12-2015, 22:48   #99
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
First off- I'd suggest that the terminolgy be used correctly. "Copper based antifouling" describes a wide range of anti fouling coatings, not just Coppercoat. Coppercoat and other similar products are copper-loaded epoxies. They are not anti fouling paint. Copper-based hard anti fouling paints like Pettit Trinidad, Interlux Ultra etc. are modified epoxies. The Interlux Micron line of paints, Pettit Ultima & Vivid etc. are ablative paints. Ablatives are different from old-style sloughing paints in that ablatives release their biocide in a controlled fashion whereas sloughing paints do not.

There of course are many other types of anti fouling and foul release coatings, some using zinc as a biocide and some using no boicide at all. A complete discussion of all of these is more than I am prepared to present tonight, however.
I really hope we can stay away from the zinc-based antifoul paints. The industry just jups from one thing to another...

CopperCoat is classified in the same group by EPA and California and other EPA as other antifouling paints--handled as pesticide/biocide. It is marketed as antifouling paint.

Copper suspended in epoxy is not.

The important distinction between this particular epoxy carrier which allows the copper to oxidize and do it's thing is that it is water based, not solvent based. Solvent based epoxies are much better at sealing and keeping out water. I believe that there is a significant difference in how the epoxy allows the copper to oxidize and create cuprous oxide -- the effective antifoul. I think that's the big difference between it and other epoxy/copper mixes that aren't antifouling.

I don't know what a sloughing bottom paint is other than an ablative. Ablatives do wear away and HARD bottom paints do not. Vivid, in particular markets itself as halfway between the ablative (sloughing?) bottom paint and hard bottom paint. I happen to like Vivid very much but it only lasts about 2 years (from my experience on 2 boats) before it starts not working as an antifoul and looking like any other sloughing bottom paint putting plumes of paint into the water if you scrub it (because it's not working anymore)

I do really like having a hard bottom paint that can be scrubbed and lasts. I'm not sure of other antifouling hard bottom paints that last as long as CopperCoat -- or even half as long as it should.
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Old 27-12-2015, 00:07   #100
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Re: Coppercoat

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I really hope we can stay away from the zinc-based antifoul paints. The industry just jups from one thing to another...
The industry is simply reponding to increased pressure worldwide to reduce copper impairment in coastal waterways. Believe me, they have a vested interest in continuing to sell you copper for many years to come and if they could avoid having to develop new, non-copper anti fouling technolgies, they would.

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CopperCoat is classified in the same group by EPA and California and other EPA as other antifouling paints--handled as pesticide/biocide.
Yes, metal-laden anti fouling coatings are classified as pesticides in this country.

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It is marketed as antifouling paint.
Simply untrue. Take some time and browse the web site. You will find Coppercoat described as "paint" exactly zero times. The product is not marketed as a paint because it is not one. It is a copper-loaded epoxy anti fouling coating.

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Copper suspended in epoxy is not.
Clearly (as evidenced by Copperpoxy's pesticide registration), this is also untrue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
The important distinction between this particular epoxy carrier which allows the copper to oxidize and do it's thing is that it is water based, not solvent based. Solvent based epoxies are much better at sealing and keeping out water. I believe that there is a significant difference in how the epoxy allows the copper to oxidize and create cuprous oxide -- the effective antifoul. I think that's the big difference between it and other epoxy/copper mixes that aren't antifouling.
No, this is the difference between Coppercoat (which displays some limited anti fouling capability) and other epoxy/copper mixes that are completely ineffective.

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Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
I don't know what a sloughing bottom paint is other than an ablative. Ablatives do wear away and HARD bottom paints do not. Vivid, in particular markets itself as halfway between the ablative (sloughing?) bottom paint and hard bottom paint. I happen to like Vivid very much but it only lasts about 2 years (from my experience on 2 boats) before it starts not working as an antifoul and looking like any other sloughing bottom paint putting plumes of paint into the water if you scrub it (because it's not working anymore)
It's easy to understand how a layman would confuse the two, but sloughing paints are a completely different type of anti fouling paint than ablatives and the two terms cannot be used interchangably, anymore than the terms "sailboat" and "powerboat" can be used interchangably. Yes, sloughing paints work primarily by wearing away as water moves past the hull (like ablative paints), but (unlike ablatives) they are based on a very soft rosin binder that not only allows biocide to be released in an uncontrolled manner, but ensures that the paint will only actually remain on the hull for about a year or so.

Ablative paints are typically not only harder than sloughing paints, but will frequently have a high copper content and will leach that copper in a more controlled, regulated manner than sloughing paints. This ensures that this type of paint provides good anti fouling performance for two years or more.

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Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery View Post
I do really like having a hard bottom paint that can be scrubbed and lasts. I'm not sure of other antifouling hard bottom paints that last as long as CopperCoat -- or even half as long as it should.
Well, there are no anti fouling paints that can claim the lifespan of Coppercoat. Long service life is the only advantage Coppercoat has over most anti fouling paints, IMHO. But again, Coppercoat is not a paint and therefore doesn't work like one.
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Old 27-12-2015, 17:24   #101
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Re: Coppercoat

Hi fstbttms, So quickly you drop into semantics of paint vs coating and sloughing vs ablative--this seems to be a pattern of your posts. The words are used interchangeably when bottom paints are the topic of discussion. There is good information for all of us on a BoatUS article and the Wikipedia entry on Anti-fouling paint. I figured we all understood that coatings = paint in this case. Indeed, paints do place a higher priority on color than protection (a reason I like Vivid so much--all those great colors!) but that's not the feature we're talking about here--color is the least important feature of the bottom paint (for most people) and rather the antifoul propery is really important. Let's not go down the rabbit hole of semantics.

Not sure why you've got this big bias against the particular product of Coppercoat. Over the years your bias does pop up on CF about the paint. As others have said and as I have said, it just works. Not "it's the greatest thing since sliced bread holy grail..." but "It works well for me."

Metal based antifouling coatings -- I'm just referring to the idea that going from one metal to another is just a different way of polluting our waters. From TbT, though copper and now zinc. It's a similar set of issues. Metal based bottom paints rely upon a small electrical current that exists between the metal oxide and seawater to prevent fouling. Its the reason why bare props non protected by a zinc end up w/o fouling whereas those properly protected typically end up with fouling. The bit of electrical current is helpful to keeping the little foulies from latching on, it seems.
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Old 27-12-2015, 17:28   #102
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Re: Coppercoat

Semantics are important when discussing technical issues. Sloughing paints are not ablative paints and copper-loaded epoxies are not anti fouling paint. To have a meaningful discussion it is critical to know what is being discussed.
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Old 27-12-2015, 18:17   #103
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Re: Coppercoat

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Not sure why you've got this big bias against the particular product of Coppercoat. Over the years your bias does pop up on CF about the paint. As others have said and as I have said, it just works. Not "it's the greatest thing since sliced bread holy grail..." but "It works well for me."
My bias is based on years of professional, hands-on experience with Coppercoat in an area where fouling is an actual concern that needs to be dealt with on a bimonthly basis. If your boating is done in a place where that is not the case and Coppercoat performs satifactorily for you, that's terrific. But as far as I'm concerned it does not do so where I work and I have never said anything to the contrary.
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Old 27-12-2015, 22:02   #104
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Re: Coppercoat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery
It is marketed as antifouling paint.

Simply untrue. Take some time and browse the web site. You will find Coppercoat described as "paint" exactly zero times. The product is not marketed as a paint because it is not one. It is a copper-loaded epoxy anti fouling coating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schooner Chandlery
Copper suspended in epoxy is not.

Clearly (as evidenced by Copperpoxy's pesticide registration), this is also untrue.

From the web site - Coppercoat is the combination of a specially developed solvent-free epoxy resin and high purity (99%) copper. Each litre of resin is impregnated with 2 kilos of ultra fine copper, the maximum allowed by law, making Coppercoat the strongest copper based anti-fouling available. Indeed no other anti-fouling exposes as much active copper to unwanted marine life.
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Old 27-12-2015, 22:51   #105
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Re: Coppercoat

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My bias is based on years of professional, hands-on experience with Coppercoat in an area where fouling is an actual concern that needs to be dealt with on a bimonthly basis. If your boating is done in a place where that is not the case and Coppercoat performs satifactorily for you, that's terrific. But as far as I'm concerned it does not do so where I work and I have never said anything to the contrary.
The boat has been in your stomping grounds of sf bay for several lengthy stays of a couple months each and once for a little over a year and we have not found fouling to be a problem. Is that where you think there is a problem?
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