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Old 21-12-2015, 09:14   #31
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Re: Coppercoat

Oh dear - who knew emotions could run high discussing anti fouling?



In general:

There's no "one solution fits all" and different boats / people will have different results.
Depends on how and where the boat is used, what the water is like, how often it gets cleaned etc. ect.

The best results ever I saw with MELKFETT - which is a cheap cream based on vaseline if I'm not mistaken. Cheap, works great ... until you need to haul out your boat
I'd never consider using it, but I have to admit those were some of the cleanest hulls.

Coppercoat was banned for a couple of years here cos of environmental regulations - not sure what the current status is, to be honest.

My current boat still has the antifouling she had when I bought her, and after 2 yrs in the water she's still clean. +1 for the cheap stuff Wish I knew exactly what they used ...

On edit - what also helps is a week or so of salt water sailing when you're usually in sweet water. Which, in a small country like the Netherlands, is very easy to do

Some people have given up on bottompaint all together and switched to the sonic version: Next generation electronic antifouling technology - UltraSonic Antifouling LtdUltraSonic Antifouling Ltd | Ultrasonic Antifouling for Powerboats, Motorboats, Sailboats & Superyachts
If that also scares away whales who want to scratch their backs, it might be worth a look
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Old 21-12-2015, 09:25   #32
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
I don't know how you get from the casual inspection of a single boat to a blanket indictment of a large percentage of the boatyard industry. Further, I don't see how, upon casual inspection, it could possibly be "patently obvious" how much copper had been mixed into the epoxy at application of the product years previous or how many coats had been applied.

The likely reality is that Coppercoat users have different experiences with the product because Coppercoat is simply not an effective anti fouling coating for all fouling in all regions. I think if you took the time to do a little more research on this and other forums, you'd find that the great majority of anecdotal reports indicating satisfaction with Coppercoat come from areas where fouling tends to be light.
My inspection was not casual. Among other arrows in my quiver, I started my working life as a Civil and Structural Engineer, and have also done extensive quality control testing along the way since (which includes failing or passing samples based on material densities).

Coppercoat is 'supposed' to have an extremely high particle density. What I looked at did not have a high particle density (to say the least).

Copper coating of boat hulls worked well everywhere, not just where 'fouling tends to be light'.

Or are you discounting a vast body of information that was so accurate, that it resulted in substantially reduced insurance premiums (from people who know about about risk and effectiveness).

You sir, have 'issues' that may well need professional attention - welcome to ignore.

(that's 3, 12 more to go).
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Old 21-12-2015, 09:28   #33
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post
Copper coating of boat hulls worked well everywhere, not just where 'fouling tends to be light'.
Obviously. Copper is far and away the most popular biocide used in anti fouling paints anywhere in the world. But that does not mean that every anti fouling paint that uses copper is going to have the same effectiveness everywhere. Different formulations, different copper loads, different copper leach rates etc., all play a part in a particular product's effectiveness in a given location. There is no "one size fits all."


Quote:
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You sir, have 'issues' that may well need professional attention - welcome to ignore.

(that's 3, 12 more to go).
Imagine how much sleep I'll lose over this
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Old 21-12-2015, 09:29   #34
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by Roy M View Post
fstbttms, we might as well back off. We are trying to communicate with "true believers". Our lack of faith makes us unworthy of judging their beloved hope. I can live with that since I probably share no other beliefs in common with the chosen people. Good thing the ocean is wide.
Lloyds Insurance do not issue insurance coverage, based on 'faith'.

In fact they specifically exclude it.

A 'believer' in absolute denial of centuries worth of solid reality and experience, would appear to be you.

So you too can join my now growing ignore list (4, 11 to go).
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Old 21-12-2015, 09:37   #35
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Re: Coppercoat

I wonder how the Copper coat + Ultrasonic would work together...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Oh dear - who knew emotions could run high discussing anti fouling?



In general:

There's no "one solution fits all" and different boats / people will have different results.
Depends on how and where the boat is used, what the water is like, how often it gets cleaned etc. ect.

The best results ever I saw with MELKFETT - which is a cheap cream based on vaseline if I'm not mistaken. Cheap, works great ... until you need to haul out your boat
I'd never consider using it, but I have to admit those were some of the cleanest hulls.

Coppercoat was banned for a couple of years here cos of environmental regulations - not sure what the current status is, to be honest.

My current boat still has the antifouling she had when I bought her, and after 2 yrs in the water she's still clean. +1 for the cheap stuff Wish I knew exactly what they used ...

On edit - what also helps is a week or so of salt water sailing when you're usually in sweet water. Which, in a small country like the Netherlands, is very easy to do

Some people have given up on bottompaint all together and switched to the sonic version: Next generation electronic antifouling technology - UltraSonic Antifouling LtdUltraSonic Antifouling Ltd | Ultrasonic Antifouling for Powerboats, Motorboats, Sailboats & Superyachts
If that also scares away whales who want to scratch their backs, it might be worth a look
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Old 21-12-2015, 09:45   #36
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by Ribbit View Post

So you too can join my now growing ignore list (4, 11 to go).

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Old 21-12-2015, 09:51   #37
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Re: Coppercoat

If you look at the past Coppercoat threads, it is standard practice to blame failures on the applicator. And there is a history of these failures, which you can read yourself.

I've seen only two Coppercoated boats. One was a fellow cruiser who had coppercoat on his Dashew. He hated it when I passed him in Austrailia, and had the boat antifouled in Thailand. The other was a new European boat in Lanzarote, who was trying to get a warranty job on their Coppercoat, which was less than a year old.
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Old 21-12-2015, 10:16   #38
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Re: Coppercoat

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
If you look at the past Coppercoat threads, it is standard practice to blame failures on the applicator. And there is a history of these failures, which you can read yourself.

I've seen only two Coppercoated boats. One was a fellow cruiser who had coppercoat on his Dashew. He hated it when I passed him in Austrailia, and had the boat antifouled in Thailand. The other was a new European boat in Lanzarote, who was trying to get a warranty job on their Coppercoat, which was less than a year old.
Copper doesn't fail in its role as a preventative of fouling. That is a well established fact.

From what I have seen, there is at least 'one' applicator around that is definitely at fault. The Contract to supply and fit according to specifications was breached. That's actually a serious crime in many jurisdictions.

Given the inescapable reality of a long and successful track record with such a use for copper, the material itself cannot be held accountable for any failures.

There are, as I see it, only these possibilities.

1) The use of an unsuitable carrier medium that is acting as a barrier to effectiveness;

2) An insufficient particle density in the carrier medium;

3) 1 & 2 combined.

Should the producer of Coppercoat be supplying the correct carrier medium and correct quantities of copper, for the correctly mixed ratio to be applied (bear in mind they face potentially extreme consumer law penalties if they fail on either point), then it is entirely understandable that blame for failures should fall on the applicator, and specifically, a failure of supervision of the applicator.

Because in those circumstances, that unfortunately, is where the blame actually lies.
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Old 21-12-2015, 13:55   #39
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Re: Coppercoat

Quote:
Given the inescapable reality of a long and successful track record with such a use for copper, the material itself cannot be held accountable for any failures.

There are, as I see it, only these possibilities.

1) The use of an unsuitable carrier medium that is acting as a barrier to effectiveness;

2) An insufficient particle density in the carrier medium;

3) 1 & 2 combined.
There is another possibility that you seem to ignore: Metallic copper isn't such a hot antifouling system in the first place.

In the "old days", ships were coppered. That is, sheets of pure copper were affixed to the entire wetted area of the hull. The purpose was not for avoiding growth, but to prevent shipworm from getting to the timber hulls, and it did that job well. But it did not prevent growth of other forms of biofouling from attaching, not at all. If one reviews the literature of the time, there is frequent discussion of fouling of coppered bottoms, even to the extent that ships were careened to be scraped clean (the precursors to fstbttms!). A well known example of mariners who did this is James Cook...

The copper used in normal bottom paints is not metallic Cu, but compounds selected by the manufacturer to be soluble enough to create a toxic environment, but not so soluble as to rapidly be consumed... and therein lies the industrial art of bottom paint design..

I will be interested to see how Rustic's coppercoat works out in waters that I am familiar with. It would be good if it was successful!!

Jim
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:09   #40
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Re: Coppercoat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
There is another possibility that you seem to ignore: Metallic copper isn't such a hot antifouling system in the first place.

In the "old days", ships were coppered. That is, sheets of pure copper were affixed to the entire wetted area of the hull. The purpose was not for avoiding growth, but to prevent shipworm from getting to the timber hulls, and it did that job well. But it did not prevent growth of other forms of biofouling from attaching, not at all. If one reviews the literature of the time, there is frequent discussion of fouling of coppered bottoms, even to the extent that ships were careened to be scraped clean (the precursors to fstbttms!). A well known example of mariners who did this is James Cook...

The copper used in normal bottom paints is not metallic Cu, but compounds selected by the manufacturer to be soluble enough to create a toxic environment, but not so soluble as to rapidly be consumed... and therein lies the industrial art of bottom paint design..

I will be interested to see how Rustic's coppercoat works out in waters that I am familiar with. It would be good if it was successful!!

Jim
It better work, it cost me near $3k

I shall of course report on CF when I've had perhaps six months and again when I slip to wash in 12 months.

The copper in 'coppercoat' is 99% ground up copper. So it says on the bag anyway. It's damn heavy enough to be almost pure copper.
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:11   #41
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Re: Coppercoat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Oh dear - who knew emotions could run high discussing anti fouling?



In general:

There's no "one solution fits all" and different boats / people will have different results.
Depends on how and where the boat is used, what the water is like, how often it gets cleaned etc. ect.

The best results ever I saw with MELKFETT - which is a cheap cream based on vaseline if I'm not mistaken. Cheap, works great ... until you need to haul out your boat
I'd never consider using it, but I have to admit those were some of the cleanest hulls.

Coppercoat was banned for a couple of years here cos of environmental regulations - not sure what the current status is, to be honest.

My current boat still has the antifouling she had when I bought her, and after 2 yrs in the water she's still clean. +1 for the cheap stuff Wish I knew exactly what they used ...

On edit - what also helps is a week or so of salt water sailing when you're usually in sweet water. Which, in a small country like the Netherlands, is very easy to do

Some people have given up on bottompaint all together and switched to the sonic version: Next generation electronic antifouling technology - UltraSonic Antifouling LtdUltraSonic Antifouling Ltd | Ultrasonic Antifouling for Powerboats, Motorboats, Sailboats & Superyachts
If that also scares away whales who want to scratch their backs, it might be worth a look
Coppercoat does not 'leak' into the environment, so I suspect it was some other products that were banned. Coppercoat is being advertised as 'the' environmental friendly coating.
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:30   #42
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Re: Coppercoat

I have coppercoat and ultrasonics (jcar) no idea which works the best but after 6 months had a diver to clean the boat, and he said nothing much to do. Boats in Lanzarote and the previous ablative antifoul was useless (on a new European boat), but that was due to poor application?
The price of applying the coppercoat (15 litres ) was little difference from an ablative antifoul, the cost of removing the incorrectly applied primer and antifoul was the largest cost.
Man in Tenerife sells coppercoat at euro 90 per litre, bargin.


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Old 21-12-2015, 14:49   #43
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Re: Coppercoat

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I have coppercoat and ultrasonics (jcar) no idea which works the best but after 6 months had a diver to clean the boat, and he said nothing much to do. Boats in Lanzarote and the previous ablative antifoul was useless (on a new European boat), but that was due to poor application?
The price of applying the coppercoat (15 litres ) was little difference from an ablative antifoul, the cost of removing the incorrectly applied primer and antifoul was the largest cost.
Man in Tenerife sells coppercoat at euro 90 per litre, bargin.


Ab


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I don't grasp this. 15 litres is over $4000 (Aust)? I can paint my 36 footer with conventional ablatives for less than $1000. Are you sure your using the real 'coppercoat'?
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Old 21-12-2015, 14:56   #44
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Re: Coppercoat

http://www.camuna.net/coppercoat-1-litro


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Old 21-12-2015, 14:59   #45
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Re: Coppercoat

Well it looked just like the cans and bags on the coppercoat website and they are one of the major boat supply shops in the Canarias, and everything is very cheap since the euro collapsed in value.

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