Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer as a "primer" for teak?

[reed1v]

We used two part polyurethane as a base for varnish on hatches with deck caulked seams. Otherwise the varnish would eat into the caulking. Worked well. Don't see why epoxy would be much different.

[jmschmidt]

I don't know much this stuff costs but it's probably more than plan old epoxy resin. After a through sanding as others have said (oil problem is eliminated). I use properly catalyzed epoxy resin thinned 50% for the first coat. The thinning solves the penetration problem. After the cure it will look like crap and you think heck I've messed up. Not to worry, sand it again to smooth with 150 and put a second coat on, this time thin only 20%. Sand smooth again and apply four or more coats of your favorite top coat. Then apply maintenance coats at proper intervals. You should not have to redo the epoxy base for years if ever.

[hsi88]

I use TotalBoat Penetrating Epoxy for lots of things including rotten transoms and floors. Seems pretty damned strong to me! Way stronger than balsa or rotten wood and WAY easier and cheaper than tearing out perfectly good fiberglass to simply replace some old wood. And the results always looks better than trying to get a smooth floor like surface from hand laying fiberglass without a mold.

[minaret]

Why must we rehash this yet again? Just do a search on the forum before asking, the subject has been beat to death.

[JOHNMARDALL]

The big mistake I have made with epoxy was failing to thoroughly wash off the amine blush from cured epoxy before re-coating with anything, including more epoxy. The bond may fail the next day or a year later, so check the manufacturer's instructions before proceeding.
New lamps for old! Maybe

John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell Group

[Three Sisters]

[QUOTE=jmschmidt;2183318]I don't know much this stuff costs but it's probably more than plan old epoxy resin. After a through sanding as others have said (oil problem is eliminated). I use properly catalyzed epoxy resin thinned 50% for the first coat. The thinning solves the penetration problem. After the cure it will look like crap and you think heck I've messed up. Not to worry, sand it again to smooth with 150 and put a second coat on, this time thin only 20%. Sand smooth again and apply four or more coats of your favorite top coat. Then apply maintenance coats at proper intervals. You should not have to redo the epoxy base for years if ever.[/QUOTE

Yes. I've also thinned epoxy and used it for sealing the open grain and other areas. Have never dared to use more than the 1:1 ratio epoxy for this because of the heat factor and the solvent. Ours is non-blushing and nearly clear when mixed, this is great if you use the many tints.

Watching it disappear into the wood grain is kind of amazing.

I don't know, is it allowed to continue this particular discussion based on the fact there are other threads on the topic ?

Doesn't matter, as a newbie we are mostly ignored anyway.

Advertisers like clicks though.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by phorvati

....Sanding gets rid of the surface oils...

No, it doesn't. But wiping with acetone does, for a moment.

OP--stick with quality products, like WEST system epoxy.
Follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
Never add anything to the epoxy which is not specifically recommended by the manufacturer. ESPECIALLY thinners!

NO epoxy restores rotted wood.

[TeddyDiver]

It's amazing how much there's faith on snake oils. Of course I understand people don't like when they are told they believed for a scam, but anyway it's our responsibility to warn them anyways.

So sorry about hurting your feelings but don't use it on anything your life may depend on. Old floor boards don't matter so much (if there's no downstairs below) but is just a waste of money.

BR Teddy

[Xlantic]

CPES work very well as a primer for wood.

A few years ago I did a side-by-side experiment on my boat. I had to varnish a teak trim from bare wood. CPES was used in one half of the length but not the other. The CPES side performed a lot better, lasting twice as long before needing re-finishing.

In the Grand Banks forum they rave about CPES as a primer for varnish or paint. The recommended technique is to apply two coats of CPES over wood and then the first coat of varnish or paint, all in the same day. The idea is that the varnish or paint forms a chemical bond with the epoxy before it fully cures.

Search for "CPES" here:http://www.grandbanksowners.com/gbb/

[Stumble]

CPES may work fine as a primer, real epoxy works better at a lower price.

All it takes to wash off the amine blush from epoxy is simply water and a sponge. It is absolutely not required or advisable to sand it away, though you may want to sand the epoxy smooth after washing it for finishing purposes.

[TeddyDiver]

It's possible to water down drinks too, thou I wouldn't pay premium price then

[toddedger]

I'm in the Marine business. I do a lot of wooden boat restoration and Brightwork. I've been using CPES for about twenty years. Those who say it's just watered-down epoxy obviously haven't actually used it. When it sets off in a cup after a couple of days it hardest to a urethane like rubber, kinda like a soft skateboard wheel. I use it on mahogany runabouts overy the filler stain before varnish. I always use it on bare teak before varnish. No need to prep with acetone. I've never had any varnish failure on teak since I started using CPES under it. I know people that use west system under varnish, but I won't do it anymore. Varnish has superior uv protection when compared to any epoxy. CPES stays below the surface gluing the varnish to the wood. Works great for painted wood hulls too. Re fastened a 65' chris Connie and used CPES followed by smith's epoxy primer paint. Had to use black primer cause the didn't have any white made up. Really freeked the owner when we painted the boat black first. That was about seven years ago and there has been zero paint failure. Normally we would be on a second paint job by now. I've used it under 545 on teak for painting awlgrip, but can't say that happens often. I do normally use it on plywood before primer. It will also help make your caulk stick better to wood, but remember its not a glue. I never use it on wood before bonding together with regular epoxy. 3m makes a Grey dust mask that has charcoal embedded in it that works great for the strong smell of CPES. I've also had good luck with smiths five year polyurethane, but I've only used it for things like teak greats that are labor intensive to coat, and aren't kept in full direct sunlight.

[minaret]

If you guys bothered to search, you'd note that among the many threads on the topic is at least one where I hashed out these issues with a Smith's rep, makers of CPES. They post here themselves, occasionally.


For the record, satisfactory answers were not to be had. For instance, unlike stated above, if you read the directions on the can it says to allow a minimum of 72 hours for off gassing of solvents, and this is at extremely high temps. In more average conditions, eight days is required to thoroughly off gas solvents before re coating with anything. This means acquiring a chemical bond with CPES is impossible, if you follow the instructions on the can.


The concept that sanding removes oil is ludicrous-it exposes fresh wood, which is inevitably more oily than wood which has been exposed to the elements. Thorough solvent wiping is a must.


As part of a pro bright work outfit back in the day, one which varnished many megayachts, we tested all epoxy products on the market, including all mentioned in this thread and many more. Honey Teak, Bristol, Rivole, Smith's, etc etc, using many different methods over a period of many years. We found that NO epoxy sealer really works. There are two reasons; epoxy is not UV stable, and epoxy is a very hard and inflexible product; wood is not. This means epoxy sealers will inevitably fail at joints sooner than traditional varnish, which is more flexible. The only way to prevent/reduce this is to remove all timbers from the vessel, strip bare, and seal the BACK of each and every piece before putting it all back together. This dimensionally stabilizes the timber, reducing joint movement to a level that epoxy MAY be able to take for some time, if not in the tropics. However, it is exhaustive and expensive.


Second, even with a three step system and the mist high end UV resistant products on the market, including use of the UV resistant hardener, epoxy is just too susceptible to UV damage for any clear finish. I use the methods discussed here often, but only as sealer (not primer) for paint. Primer and paint provide full UV protection, resulting in a robust long lasting system, when done right. But when exposed to even a little UV through a clear coat, the result is what we call "bridging". This is where the epoxy begins to fail in the deep grain only, where the sealer is thickest. The visual effect is initially very slight, and often only noticed by professional eyes. But it will continue to grow until it results in failure.


When failure occurs, I certainly have not been able to heat strip any epoxy sealer that was really flood coated until the substrate would accept no more. I've seen CPES poured on soak right through 1/2" marine grade and drip out the bottom in less than ten minutes, so I'm not sure how that would be possible. I've always had to resort to extreme measure to remove the stuff, and do it over right.


For those looking for the real deal in long lasting bright finishes, look at Awlwood, or Awlbright over Awlspar, known as "the ultimate bright work system". It's a reversal of the concept discussed here, ie the soft flexible finish goes down first (traditional varnish), and is over coated with clear linear polyurethane, which provides maximum depth of image and gloss retention, as well as the greatest possible UV protection. Doing it right is $$$ though. Incidental bonus to this system: your bright work has the amber color and depth/appearance of traditional varnish, but it is now a high end LPU. This means you can do stuff like wet sanding and polishing it. If you load it up good, and then wet sand to 1500-2000 grit and polish, there will be absolutely zero peel or brush mark, resulting in a perfect mirror finish. Everyone who sees it will think you are the greatest bright worker of all time, unless they know your tricks! This also means you can do repairs on your bright work, just like you would on paint..

[nhschneider]

I have used Smith's Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer for about 20 years and have been so pleased with the results that I'm getting desperate now that my personal inventory is getting low and the product isn't available in the Caribbean. All the bare wood I'm preparing to finish gets coated with CPES. I have found that the finish adheres better and lasts longer if I've used CPES first. I have researched thinning an epoxy resin like the West System but the company doesn't recommend it. As far as the differential in costs are concerned, at defender.com, a 2-pint package of Smith's is about US$47 whereas one quart of West System 105 Resin is about US$44 but you'd still need to buy the West System hardener at about US$22 for 7 ounces. Granted, the West System would be diluted but the difference per application would probably be pennies.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by minaret

...epoxy is a very hard and inflexible product...

Good post except for this. WEST epoxy remains flexible.