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Old 03-12-2012, 05:24   #91
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

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Yet it is a recurring and prime example of the bollocks sales drones feed to potential new boat buyers.
Are you mixing up RCD Category A and Lloyds Hull A1 ?


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Perhaps we are on the same page: I am describing my world as I wish it to be, and you are describing the world as it currently exists. Unfortunately, the acceptance of materials unsuited to the purpose in sailing will eventually drown "a punter" or two, and then further regulation, instead of common sense, will follow, to prevent the prudent from the ignorant.
Unfortunately , this tends not to happen, Brass in seacocks ( or more correctly skin fittings and ball valves) has being going in for years. perhaps if the damm things failed in a year of two, theyd all be changed out.

regulation in Europe is changing in respect of this, but its takes time to get agreement on changes to the RCD,

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That was "good enough" then, but in no sense is "good enough" today. Updating the wiring on a gradual basis on that particular boat has informed my thinking on the "good enough" issue and of what is right to use in terms of materials. The chemistry and physics involved in turning the core of an untinned conductor into green and black powder and goo doesn't really care about human value judgements. By the same measure, a dezincifying brass seacock or barb in a marina with a slightly faulty shorepower setup is also indifferent to "good enough". The prudent mariner is proactive and knowledgeable about all materials and aspects of his vessel's operation that keep it afloat. "Good enough" is too low a bar for me, although like most sailors, I enjoy finding a bargain or a cheaper substitute that will serve a limited purpose or a single task.
Unfortunately , or fortunately for manufacturers, "good enough" is what most people accept.


AGain Im not arguing for brass over DZR over Bronze, merely the compromises that take place in costs sensitive boat production. I dont like it , but I know why its there.


Dave
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Old 03-12-2012, 07:49   #92
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Are you mixing up RCD Category A and Lloyds Hull A1 ?
I am directly quoting the salesdrone who spoke the following: "This boat (a Dufour 40) is certified Lloyd's Ocean A, so your objections [to the weak portlights, lack of floorboard positive tie-downs, absence of doubled, SS hose clamps, lack of saloon handholds, flimsy 24 inch high lifelines and stanchions and embedded, screw-into backing plates] are invalid."

Goes back to the "good enough" problem. I was put off further inspection and never got to the (very likely) brass seacocks.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:02   #93
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

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am directly quoting the salesdrone who spoke the following: "This boat (a Dufour 40) is certified Lloyd's Ocean A, so your objections [to the weak portlights, lack of floorboard positive tie-downs, absence of doubled, SS hose clamps, lack of saloon handholds, flimsy 24 inch high lifelines and stanchions and embedded, screw-into backing plates] are invalid."
I suspect he meant RCD Category A (Ocean). ( ie the CE mark rating). Having said that , the Dufour is a good seaboat, Ive delivered a few, quite capable, once you realise what they are. Ive yet to see positive sole catches, even on HRs , easy enough to add, as to port holes, the ones on Dufour never gave trouble in my experience, Agree re flimsy stanchions, mind you I'm 6'" and 250 Lbs, every things flimsy, except Amels solid handrails ( which Im going to get on my next boat),

dave
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:05   #94
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

I just finished going through all valves on our 440, the only true seacocks are the PVC waste tank dumping valves the rest are ball valves.

These valves are crap MEGAVALVES MS58's they are threaded to the skin fittings and if you google them they are BRASS with a BRASS BALL. Nickel plated of course.

The skin fittings are bronze however we have decided to replace all the metal with non-metallic at a cost of $300 or so dollars. We will do this at our slipping in March.

None of these are larger than 3/4".

So all you new boat buyers when you talk to the broker ASK WHY??????? ......PLEASE
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:28   #95
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

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Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy View Post
I am directly quoting the salesdrone who spoke the following: "This boat (a Dufour 40) is certified Lloyd's Ocean A, so your objections [to the weak portlights, lack of floorboard positive tie-downs, absence of doubled, SS hose clamps, lack of saloon handholds, flimsy 24 inch high lifelines and stanchions and embedded, screw-into backing plates] are invalid."
.
If the salesman was correct about the Lloyd's certification it appears he drew the wrong conclusion. I think a more accurate appraisal would be not that your objections were invalid, but that the certification is meaningless.

While an experienced boat owner can make his own, well informed, appraisal, I worry that a novice may be given a false sense of security by a certifying agency that deems substandard to be good enough, and he may be very surprised when 5-10 years on his "certified" boat sinks due to a rotten through-hull fitting.
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Old 03-12-2012, 14:12   #96
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I suspect he meant RCD Category A (Ocean). ( ie the CE mark rating). Having said that , the Dufour is a good seaboat, Ive delivered a few, quite capable, once you realise what they are. Ive yet to see positive sole catches, even on HRs , easy enough to add, as to port holes, the ones on Dufour never gave trouble in my experience, Agree re flimsy stanchions, mind you I'm 6'" and 250 Lbs, every things flimsy, except Amels solid handrails ( which Im going to get on my next boat),

dave
I clearly remember the phrase "Lloyd's", because it made me conclude that the standards Lloyd's had might refer to hull strength and construction standards, but not a lot else of interest to me.

I suppose my point is that "less is now standard" and relying on external regulation to describe, never mind guarantee, certain minimums beyond those necessary for dock queens is unreasonable in new yachts, save for the top-most range. The prospective buyer is on his or her own.

Amels are great and if I won a lottery, I'd get one.
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Old 03-12-2012, 14:16   #97
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

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Originally Posted by mikereed100 View Post
If the salesman was correct about the Lloyd's certification it appears he drew the wrong conclusion. I think a more accurate appraisal would be not that your objections were invalid, but that the certification is meaningless.

While an experienced boat owner can make his own, well informed, appraisal, I worry that a novice may be given a false sense of security by a certifying agency that deems substandard to be good enough, and he may be very surprised when 5-10 years on his "certified" boat sinks due to a rotten through-hull fitting.
Yes, you've caught my meaning exactly. I needed to own an old boat requiring upgrades to most of the systems (just to get them in line with 21st century standards instead of 1973's) in order to "spot the problem" with "good enough".

A novice would not necessarily have this sort of knowledge stepping aboard something shiny and six-figured at a boat show.
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Old 03-12-2012, 16:57   #98
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Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

I clearly remember the phrase "Lloyd's", because it made me conclude that the standards Lloyd's had might refer to hull strength and construction standards, but not a lot else of interest to me.

I suppose my point is that "less is now standard" and relying on external regulation to describe, never mind guarantee, certain minimums beyond those necessary for dock queens is unreasonable in new yachts, save for the top-most range. The prospective buyer is on his or her own.

Amels are great and if I won a lottery, I'd get one.
Widely derided in France as an old mans slow boat, you actually don't see that many in France. I've been around the factory. Very quirky boats and very expensive for the length. Also a lot of systems to go wrong. Quite dark inside and I don't like all the synthetic finishes. I'd prefer a Passport Yacht myself. ( especially as I can customise it , whereas in the Amel you can't. I appreciate the engineering in a Amels. However I'd prefer a 50 footer CC Beneteau and throw 100k into,it. I get a far better boat. ( I hate the chart table on the Amels. ) nice dishwasher though.i often feel an Amel and other very high value small boats are like first class on an aircraft , sure the seats are nicer, but are the two meals worth the extra 4K. !! Yet coach gets there just the same.

Dave
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Old 03-12-2012, 17:08   #99
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Originally Posted by mikereed100

If the salesman was correct about the Lloyd's certification it appears he drew the wrong conclusion. I think a more accurate appraisal would be not that your objections were invalid, but that the certification is meaningless.

While an experienced boat owner can make his own, well informed, appraisal, I worry that a novice may be given a false sense of security by a certifying agency that deems substandard to be good enough, and he may be very surprised when 5-10 years on his "certified" boat sinks due to a rotten through-hull fitting.
I'm sure he meant RCD category A, in the US CE marking and the RCD are widely misunderstood.

I think certifications are clearly a minimum and like all certifications they have issues. In Europe there is a mandatory code, unlike elsewhere. It has its good points and its bad points. It does mean that boats have pass some minimums, but that in itself is a drawback. Most production builders are usually well above the minimums in fairness and have hull strengths, gear quality in general above that required. Underwater seacocks not withstanding. Furthermore the RCD is evolving and drawing in more harmonised ISO standards. So overtime it will act as a driver to quality, today its certainly acting to improve engine noise and emissions as well. Cleaner and greener.

Of course nothing beats a knowledgable buyer.

Also many production builders will change things ( or the dealer will) I once bought a production boat that needed all hatches reversed and all undef water fitting certified bronze. ( Amongst other things ) The builder and the commissioning dealer were happy to oblige and the price didn't change to boot!

Dave
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Old 03-12-2012, 21:41   #100
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

I'm not in the U.S., by the way. This was at the Toronto boat show in about 2007.
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Old 04-12-2012, 05:49   #101
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Re: Brass Seacocks - Metric??

There must be a gazillion threads on seacocks and I've tried to search and scan them but I may well have missed something.

I have a 1990 Sunbeam 37, made is Austria by Schoechl Yachts. It is generally well made. I am reworking the plumbing in the head and have found that the large ball valve on the holding tank drain leaks through when closed. I would never have noticed this when it was connected to the holding tank. The seacocks in the head are all ball valves directly connected to the thruhull fittings. It looks like they are all bronze and they are in reasonable shape. I believe that they are original. My fundamental question is: Could these be metric sized threads on the thruhulls and ball valves? I've tried Googling "metric ball valves" in all kinds of ways and haven't been successful in finding anything.

I'd like to replace the ball valve in the water. I think I can do this with some large wrenches, lots of penetrating oil, care, and some help. I'm nervous about it but will be prepared to run to the nearest boatyard (about 2 miles) and hsul out in case we have serious problems. But I want to be sure that I have the replacement ball valve (bronze!!) in hand before I start messing around.

I can't see any markings on the ball valve in question. It's in a difficult location. The other two valves (head inlet and sink drain) in the head are marked DW 20 and FN 30, respectively. They have a symbol that looks kind of like a diamond with a bar across the center.

Any information on possible metric ball valves and suggestions on replacement would be appreciated a lot!

Bill
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Old 04-12-2012, 06:58   #102
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

Bill,

Thru hull fittings should never be screwed directly into ball valves. You really need a mating flange between the two. In fact they aren't even designed to fit together.

Thru hulls are all designed with strait threads so they can be cut to length once they are installed. While ball vales almost always have tapered threads that create a better seal. The flange is there not just to spread the load, but also to act as a mating adapter between the two thread types.

It sounds like you are missing the flange, which would explain why you are having issues. Matching strait and tapered threads is done all the time (you can usually get 3-4 turns) but is always a mistake.
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:10   #103
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Re: Brass Seacocks -

Screwing a tapered thread to a parallel thread is just dumb but there's more than one way to skin a cat (excuse the pun)

Running a tapered die nut on a thru-hull once in position is very quick, the parallel thread gives a lead to the die-nut so it's hard to go crooked...

Getting flat faced seacocks into modern built boats wouldn't be easy, not sure Yanmars are same as Volvo's but the main water feed for cooling comes up through the legs.

There's no way a traditional valve can fit in at all and with the multitude of dissimilar metals within it's best to opt towards glass filled certified and tested ball valves.

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Old 04-12-2012, 07:12   #104
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Re: Brass Seacocks - Metric??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_E View Post
There must be a gazillion threads on seacocks and I've tried to search and scan them but I may well have missed something.

I have a 1990 Sunbeam 37, made is Austria by Schoechl Yachts. It is generally well made. I am reworking the plumbing in the head and have found that the large ball valve on the holding tank drain leaks through when closed. I would never have noticed this when it was connected to the holding tank. The seacocks in the head are all ball valves directly connected to the thruhull fittings. It looks like they are all bronze and they are in reasonable shape. I believe that they are original. My fundamental question is: Could these be metric sized threads on the thruhulls and ball valves? I've tried Googling "metric ball valves" in all kinds of ways and haven't been successful in finding anything.

I'd like to replace the ball valve in the water. I think I can do this with some large wrenches, lots of penetrating oil, care, and some help. I'm nervous about it but will be prepared to run to the nearest boatyard (about 2 miles) and hsul out in case we have serious problems. But I want to be sure that I have the replacement ball valve (bronze!!) in hand before I start messing around.

I can't see any markings on the ball valve in question. It's in a difficult location. The other two valves (head inlet and sink drain) in the head are marked DW 20 and FN 30, respectively. They have a symbol that looks kind of like a diamond with a bar across the center.

Any information on possible metric ball valves and suggestions on replacement would be appreciated a lot!

Bill
Bill a little bit of warmth from a small heat source goes a long way if it can be directed on the nut. You'll find one of the beauties of bronze is expansion. Just be careful
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Old 04-12-2012, 07:13   #105
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Bill,

Thru hull fittings should never be screwed directly into ball valves. You really need a mating flange between the two. In fact they aren't even designed to fit together.

Thru hulls are all designed with strait threads so they can be cut to length once they are installed. While ball vales almost always have tapered threads that create a better seal. The flange is there not just to spread the load, but also to act as a mating adapter between the two thread types.

It sounds like you are missing the flange, which would explain why you are having issues. Matching strait and tapered threads is done all the time (you can usually get 3-4 turns) but is always a mistake.
When replacing a thru hull on ours the prior thru hull had a connector threaded at each end one end went to the ball valve the other to the thru hull. When removing it . The connector turned one time before coming off. Scary considering they lived aboard.
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