Bottom Paint Question

[shamrock]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I thought I would breathe new life into this thread. It has very good information by minaret and others. I'm getting ready to move aboard in a few weeks and had planned to haul out then for a bottom paint strip, so I could use interlux 2000 as a barrier coat. So last month I went to a yard in Alameda to get a ballpark estimate of the haul. I was asked the length and I told them 35. I was then told that it may be 9 hours work at $95@hr. So I figured $1000 with materials...not too bad. So today I went to schedule and got a different story. Now they do not grind and only chemical peel and depending upon how many applications, could run into the thousands. Of course I got the "There is no way we told you that" from the counter-girl.
I'll go in a few days and talk to the yard manager directly to get this confirmed.
I'm glad I read what I did here about the time it should take to sand a hull down. I do understand it depends on the amount of paint layers. It's probably 4 from when I did some light chipping when I bought the boat out of a dry dock situation.

Do you know what kind of paint you have on there, hard or soft?

[Celestialsailor]

It's Trinidad hard

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I thought I would breathe new life into this thread. It has very good information by minaret and others. I'm getting ready to move aboard in a few weeks and had planned to haul out then for a bottom paint strip, so I could use interlux 2000 as a barrier coat. So last month I went to a yard in Alameda to get a ballpark estimate of the haul. I was asked the length and I told them 35. I was then told that it may be 9 hours work at $95@hr. So I figured $1000 with materials...not too bad. So today I went to schedule and got a different story. Now they do not grind and only chemical peel and depending upon how many applications, could run into the thousands. Of course I got the "There is no way we told you that" from the counter-girl.
I'll go in a few days and talk to the yard manager directly to get this confirmed.
I'm glad I read what I did here about the time it should take to sand a hull down. I do understand it depends on the amount of paint layers. It's probably 4 from when I did some light chipping when I bought the boat out of a dry dock situation.

9 hours is not right. Even just for removal without any coating it's not enough time, especially in CA. It takes a day to tent well, and another to sand and vac, usually a third to finish hand sanding tape edges, do block spots and move jack stands to do those spots, and pull the tent and clean the boat. Bare minimum 24 hours, just for removal. And that's if you find someone good who is willing to bang it out for you. If they only do chemical stripping you are indeed looking at a ton of hours and great expense. Sounds like it's time to get out the old soft pad sander and go to town. Make sure to find a yard that will let you do it without hassling you, it may be difficult in your area. I doubt seriously that there are only four layers of paint. You may be seeing four different colors, and each one has several layers at least. Unless it had a bottom paint removal done not too long ago. If you paint two coats every two years that would only take four years to achieve.

[Ironhorse74]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

I thought I would breathe new life into this thread. It has very good information by minaret and others. I'm getting ready to move aboard in a few weeks and had planned to haul out then for a bottom paint strip, so I could use interlux 2000 as a barrier coat. So last month I went to a yard in Alameda to get a ballpark estimate of the haul. I was asked the length and I told them 35. I was then told that it may be 9 hours work at $95@hr. So I figured $1000 with materials...not too bad. So today I went to schedule and got a different story. Now they do not grind and only chemical peel and depending upon how many applications, could run into the thousands. Of course I got the "There is no way we told you that" from the counter-girl.
I'll go in a few days and talk to the yard manager directly to get this confirmed.
I'm glad I read what I did here about the time it should take to sand a hull down. I do understand it depends on the amount of paint layers. It's probably 4 from when I did some light chipping when I bought the boat out of a dry dock situation.

In reference to your bit about the chemical strip only. I hauled in Astoria, Oregon and the yard was full of Californians. They came as far as from San Diego to use the Astoria yard. Now I understand why.

Minaret talks about tenting and big vacuums and heaters. That is the way the pros do it and undoubtedly a better solution. In the Astoria yard they either require tenting like Minaret does or require the use of vacuum sanders.

Like these, http://www.ingersollrandproducts.com...l-sanders/4151

I was there for three months. I spent the better part of two months every weekend sanding off 30 years of bottom paint. Took me a day and a half to sand off the top side.

PS I tried the chemical strip, my bottom paint laughed at it.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by minaret

9 hours is not right. Even just for removal without any coating it's not enough time, especially in CA. It takes a day to tent well, and another to sand and vac, usually a third to finish hand sanding tape edges, do block spots and move jack stands to do those spots, and pull the tent and clean the boat. Bare minimum 24 hours, just for removal. And that's if you find someone good who is willing to bang it out for you. If they only do chemical stripping you are indeed looking at a ton of hours and great expense. Sounds like it's time to get out the old soft pad sander and go to town. Make sure to find a yard that will let you do it without hassling you, it may be difficult in your area. I doubt seriously that there are only four layers of paint. You may be seeing four different colors, and each one has several layers at least. Unless it had a bottom paint removal done not too long ago. If you paint two coats every two years that would only take four years to achieve.

Thanx for the response. The yard has a permanently tented area. The 9 hours was just for sand and vac. I was going to tape and roll.
This yard definitely does not allow DIY sanding. My understanding that it is an EPA thing. Yet I know another yard down the coast does allow it if you rent their sander and vac system...much like the one you described earlier in this thread.
I'm wondering if I really want to epoxy at all. The bottom is blister free. Maybe the best thing to do, before I take off next year, is to just sand the bottom fair and do a anti-fouling paint job.

By the way...another method I heard was wet bast with sand. Aggressive but good if the person knows what they are doing. Maybe in Mananaland I will find a good solution to all this. I might buy the Interlux 2000 before I leave. I imagine shipping it to a foreign country would be a hassle.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Thanx for the response. The yard has a permanently tented area. The 9 hours was just for sand and vac. I was going to tape and roll.
This yard definitely does not allow DIY sanding. My understanding that it is an EPA thing. Yet I know another yard down the coast does allow it if you rent their sander and vac system...much like the one you described earlier in this thread.
I'm wondering if I really want to epoxy at all. The bottom is blister free. Maybe the best thing to do, before I take off next year, is to just sand the bottom fair and do a anti-fouling paint job.

By the way...another method I heard was wet bast with sand. Aggressive but good if the person knows what they are doing. Maybe in Mananaland I will find a good solution to all this. I might buy the Interlux 2000 before I leave. I imagine shipping it to a foreign country would be a hassle.

Permanent tent doesn't help, you need to tape the tent to the hull and build it in place. Otherwise you would get loads of bottom paint dust all over your topsides, and that stuff stains.
If you are required to use a rented vac sander it will take you forever. It's just much much slower than an 8" softpad sander.
Getting this done in Mexico might be a wise move. Or perhaps doing it yourself there. A little research will tell you about what it will cost down there, and whether doing it yourself would be an option. Be careful buying 2000 in advance, it does have a fairly short shelf life.
If you are blister free I would consider sanding a small 1'x1' area down to gel so you can take a moisture meter reading. If the reading is good then you have no problem with osmosis and potential hydrolysis. In that case just paint it and move on, if it hasn't had any osmosis yet it probably won't. Then you can wait until you are doing a bottom paint removal due to build up, and do your barrier coat then.
Good luck! Sometimes it's tough to live in Cali...

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse74

In reference to your bit about the chemical strip only. I hauled in Astoria, Oregon and the yard was full of Californians. They came as far as from San Diego to use the Astoria yard. Now I understand why.

Minaret talks about tenting and big vacuums and heaters. That is the way the pros do it and undoubtedly a better solution. In the Astoria yard they either require tenting like Minaret does or require the use of vacuum sanders.

Like these, Ingersoll Rand | 4151

I was there for three months. I spent the better part of two months every weekend sanding off 30 years of bottom paint. Took me a day and a half to sand off the top side.

PS I tried the chemical strip, my bottom paint laughed at it.

Did you use a vacuum sander? With what grit? Just trying to provide perspective for posterity...

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

This yard definitely does not allow DIY sanding. My understanding that it is an EPA thing.

Not an EPA thing. If it was, you couldn't DIY in any boatyard. No, Svendsen's Marine was targeted by the San Francisco Baykeeper organization for water quality issues. One of the results of that confrontation is that DIY prep work for bottom jobs is no longer allowed at Svendsen's.

San Francisco Baykeeper | San Francisco Bay's pollution watchdog since 1989

[Ironhorse74]

Originally Posted by minaret

Did you use a vacuum sander? With what grit? Just trying to provide perspective for posterity...

36 grit. After we figured out what we were doing and accepted there was no way out of the sanding, it went well. In places the bottom had a full 3/16" of paint on it.

I started with a Porter cable electric that worked fairly well. The Ingersoll Rand air sander kicked it's butt. The air sander was turning at 12,000 RPM versus the electrics 6,000 rpm.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Not an EPA thing. If it was, you couldn't DIY in any boatyard. No, Svendsen's Marine was targeted by the San Francisco Baykeeper organization for water quality issues. One of the results of that confrontation is that DIY prep work for bottom jobs is no longer allowed at Svendsen's.

San Francisco Baykeeper | San Francisco Bay's pollution watchdog since 1989

Thanx...I was wondering who I have to thank for not being allowed to sand. While Baykeeper has good intentions, like most bureaucracy, they over step.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by minaret

Permanent tent doesn't help, you need to tape the tent to the hull and build it in place. Otherwise you would get loads of bottom paint dust all over your topsides, and that stuff stains.
If you are required to use a rented vac sander it will take you forever. It's just much much slower than an 8" softpad sander.
Getting this done in Mexico might be a wise move. Or perhaps doing it yourself there. A little research will tell you about what it will cost down there, and whether doing it yourself would be an option. Be careful buying 2000 in advance, it does have a fairly short shelf life.
If you are blister free I would consider sanding a small 1'x1' area down to gel so you can take a moisture meter reading. If the reading is good then you have no problem with osmosis and potential hydrolysis. In that case just paint it and move on, if it hasn't had any osmosis yet it probably won't. Then you can wait until you are doing a bottom paint removal due to build up, and do your barrier coat then.
Good luck! Sometimes it's tough to live in Cali...

Sounds like a plan. When I bought the boat, it had been out of the water for 2 years. In hindsight, that would have been the time to do the epoxy. But same scenario...No DIY. That particular yards quality of work is very poor.
So I think in Mexico, I will haul out, then do the 1'X1' patch and measure. While I'm at it, at least fair down the bottom. The paint on it now is 6 months old. By the time I hit Mx, it will be a solid 2 years...time for something. I'll make sure I take a decent sander and soft pad with me. I think Bosch makes a good one with a vacuum port.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Thanx...I was wondering who I have to thank for not being allowed to sand. While Baykeeper has good intentions, like most bureaucracy, they over step.

The Boatyard at Grand Marina has also reached a settlement with Baykeeper, but I think DIY work was already not allowed at that yard.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

The Boatyard at Grand Marina has also reached a settlement with Baykeeper, but I think DIY work was already not allowed at that yard.

I'm sure Baykeeper had a legitimate beef with botom paint in the water. I question where the brunt of it comes from...yards or the sloughing from the boats themselves. Surely they could have come up with a containment and disposal set up that worked for everyone.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Celestialsailor

Surely they could have come up with a containment and disposal set up that worked for everyone.

We certainly did here in WA. There was a long period when the EPA was all over us and everyone else in the biz around here. But eventually they realized that we were bending over backwards to comply, and were trying our best to provide environmentally friendly services. We came to an understanding and now we rarely even see them anymore, OSHA and the fire department stop by more often than they do. Cali EPA is a bit out of control IMHO. Somehow it's OK to paint a boat with a material that's designed to leach out and then keep it in the water year round, but sanding with dust containment is not OK? Doesn't make any sense...

[Celestialsailor]

Amen!....It's getting to the point where in the future, it might be cheaper to haul out and truck it inland to a private undisclosed spot and do the work. Just clean up the mess.