Bottom paint application cost!!

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

... Easy way to kill a tree is to get a few copper nails and drive them into the base....

This is, of course, completely off the point. Plant, marine, and human physiology are worlds apart. Using a more relevant example, copper plumbing is consider to be among the safest materials. Likewise, copper exposure by skin absorption has got to be very inefficient; copper oxide volubility in water is vanishingly low, the reason it takes years of immersion to deplete. Unless you bath in it, this is a difficult argument. And even when the exposure is significant, the mechanism is not cancer. Google it.

The solvents have changed over the years. Anti-fouling used to be loaded with benzene and toluene, where as now the solvents are primarily low-odor mineral spirits. VERY different in cancer risk, so anecdotes from 50 years ago are of limited validity.

I have done industrial hygiene studies. There are chemicals that bother me, and some of them are in anti-fouling. I'm not sayin' you should not use PPE, as with any solvent-based paint, but I'm not seeing a specific smoking gun here. I'd be far more concerned about strippers and interior painting.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by thinwater

This is, of course, completely off the point. Plant, marine, and human physiology are worlds apart. Using a more relevant example, copper plumbing is consider to be among the safest materials. Likewise, copper exposure by skin absorption has got to be very inefficient; copper oxide volubility in water is vanishingly low, the reason it takes years of immersion to deplete. Unless you bath in it, this is a difficult argument. And even when the exposure is significant, the mechanism is not cancer. Google it.

The solvents have changed over the years. Anti-fouling used to be loaded with benzene and toluene, where as now the solvents are primarily low-odor mineral spirits. VERY different in cancer risk, so anecdotes from 50 years ago are of limited validity.

I have done industrial hygiene studies. There are chemicals that bother me, and some of them are in anti-fouling. I'm not sayin' you should not use PPE, as with any solvent-based paint, but I'm not seeing a specific smoking gun here. I'd be far more concerned about strippers and interior painting.

Relative to if it will take "years off your life", I agree it's not relevant and that's why I ended with don't lick your bottom paint comment.

But someone asked if copper was toxic and it definitely is but as you indicate, it's got to get into your body in significant amounts.

I definitely agree there are other issues that are a bigger concern. If you are really worried about cancer in particular, I would focus on staying out of the sun which means you probably shouldn't be a cruiser because the reflection off the water means even in the shade of a dodger, you are often still getting a good dose of UV rays and that's a day in day out situation no a one off exposure every couple years.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Sure I accept that mishandling hazardous materials can be hazardous.

OK, now we are getting somewhere.

That was never the question. The issue is the presumption of years off your life using normal precautions where it gets a little fuzzy.

Actually, THAT WAS NEVER THE QUESTION.

In post 47, I stated...

"I chuckle to myself, every time I walk through a yard, and see DIYers taking unnecessary risks with their health, the health of others, and the environment, cutting years from their life expectancy..."

Show me where I stated, that these people are using "normal precautions".

Oh, looky there, it isn't. I stated, "taking unnecessary risks".

What are the unnecessary risks?

Not wearing proper PPE and employing proper storage and handling procedures, as I've stated I don't know how many times now??????

Then in post 53 you stated...

"So you say a top of the line oncologist can't tell you how many exposures it will take but earlier you implied one DIY bottom job will take years off your life..."

Please show me where I stated that?

Oh yeah, that simply isn't there either.

So these are your intentional misrepresentations, not my position.

Now, do I have to teach the significant difference between my post and yours?

So not just in response to you, but with a response to various combined ridiculous notions in this thread:

1. I do not need someone with a degree in Optometry to advise me that sticking a fork in my eye could be hazardous to my vision.

2. I do not need someone with a degree in Industrial Hygiene to advise me that getting spent anti-fouling fine particles and toxic fumes created by the heat of the sanding process, into my body by ingestion, absorption, and inhalation, are going to be hazardous to my health.

3. I do not need someone with a degree in Chemistry to advise me that anti-fouling doesn't change from a hazardous material to harmless material, the day someone decides to sand it off. Of course the effectiveness of the active ingredient depletes with time. How much is left....0%? Of course not. Because I am a reasonable person, with likely average intellect, I deduce that the concentration on the surface may be significantly depleted, but that the concentration just below the surface is much higher.

4. I do not need an Oncologist to tell me there is a big difference between wearing a copper bracelet and inhaling, absorbing, ingesting significant quantity of spent ant-fouling paint fine particulate.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My company policy is to leave a work space in equal or better condition than found.

To achieve this, we collect all of the removed anti-fouling possible, for proper disposal.

For a typical 35 foot boat, this will typically be about 2 gallons of dry particulate.

I have no idea how hazardous the fumes created by heating this stuff up with a sander are, perhaps even more than anything else, so I choose to err on the side of caution, and suggest it just ain't wise to smoke and inhale.

In conclusion, kids, don't mishandle anti-fouling paint, if you hope to be healthy to sail that boat into your sunset years.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Sure I accept that mishandling hazardous materials can be hazardous. That was never the question. The issue is the presumption of years off your life using normal precautions where it gets a little fuzzy.

I thought it was only my wife where I had to know what she meant even if what she said was the exact opposite. I'll add you to that list of people.

Your wife too. Someone must teach them that.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

OK, now we are getting somewhere.



Actually, THAT WAS NEVER THE QUESTION.

In post 47, I stated...

"I chuckle to myself, every time I walk through a yard, and see DIYers taking unnecessary risks with their health, the health of others, and the environment, cutting years from their life expectancy..."

Show me where I stated, that these people are using "normal precautions".

Oh, looky there, it isn't. I stated, "taking unnecessary risks".

What are the unnecessary risks?

Not wearing proper PPE and employing proper storage and handling procedures, as I've stated I don't know how many times now??????

.....

Hmm, never seen such in the US, must be a Canadian thing......

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I thought it was only my wife where I had to know what she meant even if what she said was the exact opposite.

LOL ! You too?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

OK, now we are getting somewhere...cutting years from their life expectancy...
.

I'll bow to your superior wisdom. If you so much as walk down the paint aisle, you will likely be dead by morning.

[thinwater]

Why the straw man arguments (suggest a ridiculous exaggeration and then tear it down)? No one is sticking a fork in their eye. We can assume (I hope) that the followers of this post will use baseline PPE and either wet or vacuum sand. Fine particulates and solvents are generally unhealthy, and spreading dust and mess around the yard is rude, damaging, and immature.

Certainly DIYs making these mistakes should be corrected. But I don't make those mistakes.

Not only should you wear a respirator for many things, the respirator must be tested for proper fit by exposing to something you can smell while moving through a full range, talking, and breathing deeply. Standard OSHA stuff.

[goat]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I'd be far more concerned about strippers.......

Yes. Strippers will definitely take years off your life. Luckily it's the lousy years at the end.

;^)

goat

[Cadence]

Anything can be taken to extremes. I'll bet a 3 pack a day habit takes more off your life than being covered in bottom paint, or grinding polyester and glass. Maybe it is a good discussion to keep someone from doing a DIY job stupidly but how often will someone be stripping their bottom. I minor amount of sense would say you don't breath the dust or bathe in the paint.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by goat

Yes. Strippers will definitely take years off your life. Luckily it's the lousy years at the end.

;^)

goat

Well I don’t know about years off your life, but they can sure empty a wallet fast (so I’ve been told). ;-)

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Well I don’t know about years off your life, but they can sure empty a wallet fast (so I’ve been told). ;-)

I've heard rumors....

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I'll bow to your superior wisdom.

Aw shucks, now you’re just trying to make me blush.

[bgallinger]

Update on my original post...
I was quoted $92/hr to prep my boat for bottom paint application and $720 to apply 1 gallon of bottom paint. I supply the paint. This price was from a marina in north florida.

A marina in Detroit, MI will sand & prep the bottom of my 34 ft. boat AND apply 1 gallon of bottom paint (which I provide) for $505.

Now that's a fair deal.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by bgallinger

Update on my original post...
I was quoted $92/hr to prep my boat for bottom paint application and $720 to apply 1 gallon of bottom paint. I supply the paint. This price was from a marina in north florida.

A marina in Detroit, MI will sand & prep the bottom of my 34 ft. boat AND apply 1 gallon of bottom paint (which I provide) for $505.

Now that's a fair deal.

Not for the marina in Detroit. ;-)

Not for you either; spending over a thousand to move the boat to save a few hundred.

Shopping for low price is rarely a good idea for service.

From the business standpoint, the only way to undercut one's competitors is to cut costs (corners) or margin. Cutting corners generally means poorer results for the customer; cutting margin reduces profitability and sustainability for the business.

Whatcha wanna bet after you get the boat there, the Detroit marina starts finding things that must be corrected that will increase the original estimate?

In the construction industry, there are lots of businesses that quote so low they'll knowingly lose their shirt, and just wait for the customer change orders to come in; resulting in a higher final bill than those contractors with realistic original quotes.

In general, the marketplace naturally deters over-pricing. If one business tries to charge more than the market will bear, the work will go to competitors, and that business will have to lower price to retain market share.

When shopping for service, shop for business integrity and trustworthiness rather than original estimate. This is where you land the "fair deal" pretty much every time.

(PS, we invoice based on actual time and materials, which is lower than original estimate about 70% of the time. Whereas we invoice higher than original estimate, less than 10% of the time, and only after customer approval to go over estimate, due to unforeseen circumstances.)

What some don't get, is that a service contract is a two way street.

I screen out customers who harbour a "Screw the contractor, I want it as cheap as I can get it" attitude.

The best customer / contractor relationship is where the customer who has financial means needs the skills of a contractor (for whatever reason), and the contractor who has the skills the customer needs agrees to trade them for an appropriate amount of money.

What is the "appropriate amount of money"?

Where the contractor can earn a reasonable salary, cover costs, turn a profit, and stay in business to serve other customers, and the customer gets what they pay for; a quality job and excellent service.