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Old 18-11-2015, 19:37   #1
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Boat knocked off hard stand

Hi folks,

I'm sorry to introduce myself with such a sad thread, but I would like to get your thoughts about an accident my boat was in on the hard.

As many of you know, a fatal windstorm ripped through Washington yesterday. Our boat, a 1979 Newport 30, was knocked off its stand by an Irwin, which was itself blown onto my boat by the wind. No one was injured. I'm in the midwest, but my sister took pictures, some of which I've attached. As you can see, there is a huge crack in the leading edge of the keel, the mast is bent, and the port spreader is broken off. The shrouds seem to be intact, with the exception of the port upper shroud. Our aft pulpit was smashed against the next boat, which mine tipped into (it received superficial damage, the Irwin somewhat more, and mine, in the middle, the worst), and there is a lot of other damage to the upper and lower hull, which I think is more superficial.

I haven't had a surveyor out yet--I just got word late this afternoon. We only have liability insurance, but I am hopeful that the other boat's and/or yard's insurance companies are going to handle this. Those conversations will begin tomorrow.

I know we need a survey immediately, but I thought I'd reach out tonight and get feedback on the damage to the keel, which looks like the worst of it. I'm afraid this looks like a bad piece of business, very bad. FYI, on these boats the keel is encapsulated and the keel bolts are glassed in.

If you have any constructive thoughts regarding the keel and/or insurance, I would greatly appreciate them. This is extremely heart rendering. I spent the entire year and most of my fluid assets making her safe and sound, readying her to move onto in a few months...

Thanks in advance,

Jim
S/V Fatty Lumpkin
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Old 18-11-2015, 19:44   #2
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

Yikes. Doesnt look great as in likely totaled by my estimation- it is the keel and I'm not sure how you'd repair it well enough to trust in future. Do you think it was already damaged in the past? Just seems surprising that falling off the stands would do so much damage to a very strong part of any boat.


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Old 18-11-2015, 19:51   #3
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

Hi and thanks for the reply!

I had the bottom paint off to the gelcoat this summer and saw no evidence of a keel impact or other damage (even blisters).

I think she was flung off by the much heavier Irwin and struck the other boat--it certainly isn't the normal load direction, even if it was grounded. If I were to gently careen her, the same sideways impulsive forces would not have been applied.

I guess my fear is that you're right--totaled. She's more than a boat to me, I've put so much into her. It's depressing as all get out.
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Old 18-11-2015, 19:53   #4
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

Sounds like a really tough situation. I feel bad for you and wish you the best of luck.

Surprised to see your headsail on the furler. At Seaview in Seattle they require furling headsails to be removed for boats stored on the hard. A loose headsail could be scary for a boat on the hard in a windstorm.
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Old 18-11-2015, 19:59   #5
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

Thanks for the sentiments; I do appreciate it. The sails were off all year, but I put them on a couple of weeks ago to sail her and hadn't taken them off yet. Good to see it is still furled!
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Old 19-11-2015, 03:30   #6
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

I'm not sure the going rate for a 1979 Irwin but my guess is they total her and offer just a few thousand. I would be very shocked if the cost to repair at full yard rates doesn't exceed $30-50k.

Of course that's if you can place the blame on someone else. I'm guessing the yard supplied the stands and placed them, so it likely falls on them but be careful they don't try to push it back on you. If they could in any way reasonably claim you did something that contributed, you would be in a tough situation...in which case liability insurance won't do anything for you.

Most likely the marina's insurance will pay the current value but I offer these comments so that you stay on your guard in case they try to put the blame back on you and you get nothing.
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Old 19-11-2015, 03:49   #7
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

Phyz-please PM me. I know all the yards in the area well and have managed some. I recently went through a similar situation (fire in a boatyard which damaged my boat). I'd be very happy to help however possible. Prepare yourself for the worst in regards to insurance, but maybe you'll get lucky. Is that Dagmar's?
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Old 19-11-2015, 04:14   #8
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

Well that just sucks...

You've got some good help here though! ^^^^^^^
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Old 19-11-2015, 04:39   #9
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

That was a pretty bad blow. Very sorry to see such destruction. Hope you are able to replace the boat.
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Old 19-11-2015, 04:58   #10
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

Hi Valhalla360,

(I apologize if my reply appears twice.)

Thanks much for your insights and advise. However, in my best interest and for the time being, for my own part I'm going to reserve further discussion re insurance, liability and the like to the parties involved...hopefully I can be made whole.

As a technical challenge, I would like to discuss repairing the keel and lower hull attachment. The manufacturer states that the keel is a pour of lead and alloys, with SS (or galvanized?) bolts embedded in the pour. The keel is inserted and bonded into a hull recess. From inside, the nuts are fastened to the bolts, and a mixture of resin and asbestos is poured into the recess to seal the nuts in place. That is faired with fiberglass. Outside, the area of the join between the hull and keel is glassed, and then the entire keel is "faired with microballoons". The joint is described as "permanent" and "impervious", and the nuts and bolts are (intended to be) completely sealed. I do not see any nuts in the bilge but rather a smooth glass layer.

I've got to say this seems beyond my 'can-do' spirit. If I could have access to the nuts, I'd consider dropping the keel 'the normal way' and affecting the repair myself.

Do you (or others) have experience with this type of keel attachment? Sometimes the experts (not me for sure) have clever ways of getting around serious obstacles to make things happen.

Gratefully,

Jim
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Old 19-11-2015, 06:01   #11
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

Jim,

I'm going with "totaled" as well.

Here's the problem: You are only aware of the visible damage. Impacts can cause tremendous damage to the glass below paint/gelcoat. Delamination, stress fractures that didn't split the paint...

I would be very hesitant to continue using this boat.
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Old 19-11-2015, 06:18   #12
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Most likely the marina's insurance will pay the current value but I offer these comments so that you stay on your guard in case they try to put the blame back on you and you get nothing.
Many yards here in the North East place liability on the boat owner, in the storage contract, for an owner who chooses to store mast up. It seems nearly every winter we have a few topple, with mast up, to the point where a number of yards now completely disallow mast up storage...

Storage Rules:
"Strong winds during the winter are a potential cause of damage or accidents involving stored boats, most particularly sailboats stored with masts upright. In the case of such damage or accidents, boat owners would be liable for damage to their boat and to adjacent boats. RRB assumes no responsibility for damage to any boats."

Unfortunately the Newport is most likely a total loss. The insurers will likely figure it it out as to who pays what......
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Old 19-11-2015, 06:41   #13
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

You have Pm'd minaret haven't you?
Can't hurt, lots of times having an acquaintance who knows someone can really help.
I'd also call a Lawyer, before I did or said anything, my guess is the boat that toppled into yours is responsible, but proving that is what happened may not be so easy.

I go to Juvenile court today with my Daughter for a traffic accident. Car 1 stopped suddenly in the middle of the road, car number 2 hit car number 1 doing significant damage to both, my daughter was in car number 3 that supposedly hit car number 2, but no damage, marks or any sign of contact.
She received the ticket, ticket says she hit car 2, which drove it into car 1 doing damage to both 1 &2, yet no damage between her car and #2. She was driving a Prius, not a car known to be able to drive other vehicles into anything without receiving damage, yet she got the ticket.

Only point of all that is see a Lawyer, before the other guys Lawyer makes the whole thing your fault.
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Old 19-11-2015, 07:10   #14
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

I would hold off on a lawyer. It is a shame the insurance is Liability Only. Comprehensive would have made this much easier as they would handle the entire process for you. I'm not trying to twist the knife, only pointing out all sides of the discussion for other readers with similar issues in the future.


I would start with your neighbors insurance. Their Liability should be covering you since that boat fell into yours. If he is uninsured or you start having problems, then I would involve the lawyers.
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Old 19-11-2015, 07:15   #15
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Re: Boat knocked off hard stand

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Many yards here in the North East place liability on the boat owner, in the storage contract, for an owner who chooses to store mast up. It seems nearly every winter we have a few topple, with mast up, to the point where a number of yards now completely disallow mast up storage...

Storage Rules:
"Strong winds during the winter are a potential cause of damage or accidents involving stored boats, most particularly sailboats stored with masts upright. In the case of such damage or accidents, boat owners would be liable for damage to their boat and to adjacent boats. RRB assumes no responsibility for damage to any boats."

Unfortunately the Newport is most likely a total loss. The insurers will likely figure it it out as to who pays what......
Yep, that's why I suggested making the assumption they would try to put it back on him. The insurers first response will likely be it's his problem and since he only has liability insurance, that would mean he gets nothing (it would cover damage his boat did to other boats)

Of course these clauses may or may not be enforceable. His boat didn't fall over due to having his mast up. It fell over because the adjacent boat fell onto his boat. Plus the court could decide since the marina allows it, this is just an excuse to get out of thier liability. On the other hand, his liability insurance may say, he was informed not to do it so it's his fault and they shouldn't have to pay.

A messy situation for sure.

OP: Unfortunately, I don't have the background to offer much advice on repairing the keel other than it's not something I would tackle.
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