Best Antifouling Paint

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by SimonV

What is the stuff used on submarines?

Sent from my GT-N7105T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Never mind subs, what the big ships and supertankers use? One of those = hundreds of sailboats?

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by SVTatia

Never mind subs, what the big ships and supertankers use? One of those = hundreds of sailboats?

The problem with copper loading in our waterways regarding pleasure boats vs. large commercial shipping is; large commercial ships are not congregated in small, poorly flushed basins like pleasure boats are. Every one of the hundreds of thousands (if not more) of pleasure boats that live in marinas in this country are pumping copper into those basins virtually 24/7/365. That creates a lot of copper loading in those waterways. This is not the case with commercial shipping which not only are not congregated in large numbers but spend most of their time at sea moving between ports.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

Pettit Trinidad does not "only last 1 year." That is a completely untrue statement. Yes, we all know that you got a bad bottom job somewhere along the line and since have spared no effort in bad-mouthing what is probably the best anti fouling paint in the world. The truth is (for anybody inclined to believe what Jedi is spouting); a properly maintained Trindad bottom will last 3+ years. And I have seen plenty perform well even longer than that.

How the hell would you know what hull cleaners prefer? Are you a hull cleaner?

I had said that it only lasts one year in the tropics. You are -not- in the tropics.

I clean my own hull (once or twice a year with good paint) but I know you prefer paint that doesn't work so well because you always promote that. Don't forget that the Islands44 is manufactured in the USA, not in some dark illegal hole in the world like you imply :thumb

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I had said that it only lasts one year in the tropics. You are -not- in the tropics.

I clean my own hull (once or twice a year with good paint) but I know you prefer paint that doesn't work so well because you always promote that. Don't forget that the Islands44 is manufactured in the USA, not in some dark illegal hole in the world like you imply :thumb

You had a bad paint job once with Trinidad. That doesn't mean it isn't good product. Nor does it make you an expert on Trinidad. I do not promote inferior anti fouling paints, I promote excellent ones because I care about my customers and their boats.

Further, I never inferred that Seahawk Island 44 wasn't made in the U.S. What I inferred was that only third world sh*tholes still allow its use.

[brantleychuck]

I have had good luck with Ship bottoms. Made in a local sh.. Hole in sw Florida.

[VirtualVagabond]

Many years ago when tin based antifoul paint was banned, the alternatives were hopeless, and I met a colourful character in northern NSW who claimed he was getting 'horse antibiotics' from a vet friend and adding it to his paint and getting 3 years still.
Last year in St Martin I met an English sailor who asked me if I'd ever heard of antibiotics being added to antifoul paint.

So those were 2 exposures to the concept, separated by both time and distance.

Urban myth or have others come across it too?

Vic

[colemj]

In general, Trinidad in the Caribbean tropics is good for maybe one year. Much less in certain places. In Cartagena it will last about 2 weeks. There are certain places it will last a long time, but these are isolated. This isn't a one-time bad bottom job - it is the nature of that paint in the tropics. No matter how much you like it or want it to work, it is not a good paint here. It does have the advantage that you can scrub the bottom hard every couple of weeks, but you will be scrubbing...

SeaHawk 44 and Bluewater Caribbean Gold are the only two paints we have found that give us 2-3 years in the Caribbean. It is the same with every single boat here we meet. Boats not using one of these two paints are complaining and scrubbing within a short time.

And let's be accurate about this - these paints contain ~10% TBT, with the rest of the antifoul component being cuprous oxide. They are not the pure highly-loaded TBT of old-time paints.

If you must use non-tin paint, Micron 66 is the only other paint that gives you at least a year, and a bit more. However, it is so soft that the necessary scrubbing it will need will use it up quickly. Best to put on 4 coats because you will be releasing most of them (and their copper and anti-slime components) over the next year or so.

Fstbttm, your profession is boat bottoms and paints, and you have strong opinions on certain paints, but AFAIK you have zero experience with paints in the Caribbean. Professionally or recreationally. Some of us have a huge amount of experience and knowledge of boat bottoms and paints in the Caribbean. Try to imagine Jedi or me arguing with you about what works in SFB.

Mark

[SVTatia]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

The problem with copper loading in our waterways regarding pleasure boats vs. large commercial shipping is; large commercial ships are not congregated in small, poorly flushed basins like pleasure boats are. Every one of the hundreds of thousands (if not more) of pleasure boats that live in marinas in this country are pumping copper into those basins virtually 24/7/365. That creates a lot of copper loading in those waterways. This is not the case with commercial shipping which not only are not congregated in large numbers but spend most of their time at sea moving between ports.

I guess one hears or believe what he or she needs to. I am not sure if you have ever gone to a Central or South American port to see how many ships are outside "waiting" their turns for days sometimes for weeks at a a time. Remember, each one of them represents a lot of sail boats. I also saw numerous ships on European ports just sitting.
My previous boat was steel and copper-based anti fouling was not recommended, so I bought my paint where the big ships bought theirs, and what were they? Tin-based of course, those ships are also made of steel.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the environment, preserving and all that. But the green bus**t that is going around and the fact that they go after the little guys is not the way to do it. IMO.

[fstbttms]

My issue is someone making a blanket statement about the quality of the product, regardless of where it is used and then accusing me of unscrupulous business practices based on that product generalization, both of which Jedi did in this thread.

I still don't buy the premise that Trinidad only lasts for two weeks in Cartagena while other paints work fine there.

[colemj]

Before fstbttms attacks me on my environmental awareness, I will point out that we do not own an automobile, burn only ~100gal of petroleum-based fuel each year, do not draw electricity from a commercial grid that uses coal or oil, do not eat factory-farmed meat, do not eat factory-farmed produce, buy very little pre-processed food that has been shipped long distances, fly on an airplane at most once/yr, and there are probably many other things most USA people do regularly that are bad for the environment that we don't partake in.

In other words, we are out cruising. Our environmental footprint is extremely small in comparison to those living in the US.

One picks their glass house from which to throw one's rocks, I suppose…

Mark

[sailr69]

I am not any kind of expert on bottom paints but I wonder; if copper is bad for the environment why do we use copper pipes for our plumbing? all that water use goes to the sea don't it? my boat uses copper pipes in it too.

[sailorchic34]

Originally Posted by sailr69

I am not any kind of expert on bottom paints but I wonder; if copper is bad for the environment why do we use copper pipes for our plumbing? all that water use goes to the sea don't it? my boat uses copper pipes in it too.

Ah, the copper in the pipes generally does not separate from the pipe, unless using RO or USP pure water. So copper, like asbestos, when uses in solid form is generally non-toxic. Grind either into a fine powder that can then be absorbed, and your body will not be a happy camper.

We use copper pipe because it does not oxidize/ rust when in contact with water. The lead/ tin solder that was used to joint the copper pipe on the other hand, had some issues. Though mainly with new and very old installations. This as minerals build up on the inside surface of the pipe which prevents lead leaching after a year or so. Though most of us seem to survive mostly mentally intact.

[Blue Crab]

A one man band on a fool's errand.

[fstbttms]

Originally Posted by SVTatia

I guess one hears or believe what he or she needs to. I am not sure if you have ever gone to a Central or South American port to see how many ships are outside "waiting" their turns for days sometimes for weeks at a a time. Remember, each one of them represents a lot of sail boats. I also saw numerous ships on European ports just sitting.
My previous boat was steel and copper-based anti fouling was not recommended, so I bought my paint where the big ships bought theirs, and what were they? Tin-based of course, those ships are also made of steel.
Don't get me wrong, I am all for the environment, preserving and all that. But the green bus**t that is going around and the fact that they go after the little guys is not the way to do it. IMO.

1.- I work in one of the busiest ports in the world and I assure you that commercial shipping does not just "sit around".

2.- Even if they did, you apparently fail to grasp the difference between 1000 pleasure boats leaching copper nonstop for decades into a relatively small, poorly flushed marina and a dozen container ships spending a day in a large, open water anchorage.

3.- Your entire argument is based on speculation whereas there are multiple studies conducted by the U.S. Navy, Port of San Diego, the State of California and others supporting mine. The bottom line is that copper leaching from anti fouling paint on pleasure craft is a well-documented problem while copper leaching from large ships is not. At least not to the extent it is from pleasure craft.

I'm sorry if you and others don't like to hear that TbT paints are bad and that you shouldn't be using them. But the fact of the matter is that the great majority of the seafaring nations on this planet have banned TbT for use in anti fouling paints. Clearly TbT paint is still available but most commecial shipping lines will not use it. Not if they want to make port in anywhere in North America, Europe, Oceania or most of Asia.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by fstbttms

My issue is someone making a blanket statement about the quality of the product, regardless of where it is used and then accusing me of unscrupulous business practices based on that product generalization, both of which Jedi did in this thread.

I still don't buy the premise that Trinidad only lasts for two weeks in Cartagena while other paints work fine there.

Again, no, I clearly specified for use in the tropics, not regardless of where it is used. Most paints that are legal in the USA are pretty useless here. I agree with Mark that Micron66 is the only one I can think of that has a chance, but it doesn't work in fresh water, of which we have a lot around here from rain and river outflow.

Places like Luperon, Cartagena or St. Maarten, Pettit Trinidad will not last more than 2 weeks, regardless if you believe that or not. I will admit though that Islands44 won't last for 3 years there either. It'll last for 2 years max. with scraping every 4 weeks.
Anything without anti fouling, like the anchor chain, will have 2-4 inches of growth in 4 weeks, meaning your anchor chain is 5-8" diameter. Now -that's- a high fouling area.